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  Click here to go to the first Rift Team post in this thread.   Thread: Rogue buffs

  1. #361
    Rift Master Beringer's Avatar
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    Edit timer: I just wanted to point out that it's not a question of whether a Ranger _can_ get out of melee range. It's that you always _have_ to do it, even if you're perfectly safe and no one is hitting on you and no other class would have to do that. This is purely a QoL issue and doesn't really affect gameplay at all.

    I'm an altoholic: Thirteen 60 clerics, eleven 60 rogues, eleven 60 warriors, five 60 mages, etc...

  2. #362
    Plane Walker Eione's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vladd View Post
    First off, I'm gonna assume that this is a PVP-centric request because Rangers have tank pets that do a fine job of keeping mobs out of their dead zone.

    Secondly, I have to look at all of the options that the rogue has at their disposal to get out of melee before considering that sort of change.

    Off the cuff though and assuming just 61 Ranger... Close Quarters Combat is a 16 point investment in Marksman. That takes it out of the equation.

    Still, 0 points in Riftstalker gives Shadow Shift. 0 in Marksman gives Shift Shot and On the Double. 11 points in Bladedancer gets Sprint. 6 points in Marksman gives Repelling Shot which can be talented into affecting 5 targets for 11 points. There is also Hasty Departure in Marksman for 11 points invested too.

    Then if you look at the Ranger tree itself...

    Fleeting Instincts
    Escape Artist
    Pin Down

    So with that amount options to get out of melee and still maintain 61 points... this doesn't seem like a high priority QoL change that is needed at this time. If someone would like to make a strong case for this, by all means, do. The PM box is always open. =)
    Vladd, there is no need to overcomplicate things.
    61 Ranger is the only ranged spec in the game which has minimal range. Why?
    It's terribly annoying on some raid fights for no reason.

  3. #363
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vladd View Post
    First off, I'm gonna assume that this is a PVP-centric request because Rangers have tank pets that do a fine job of keeping mobs out of their dead zone.

    Secondly, I have to look at all of the options that the rogue has at their disposal to get out of melee before considering that sort of change.

    Off the cuff though and assuming just 61 Ranger... Close Quarters Combat is a 16 point investment in Marksman. That takes it out of the equation.

    Still, 0 points in Riftstalker gives Shadow Shift. 0 in Marksman gives Shift Shot and On the Double. 11 points in Bladedancer gets Sprint. 6 points in Marksman gives Repelling Shot which can be talented into affecting 5 targets for 11 points. There is also Hasty Departure in Marksman for 11 points invested too.

    Then if you look at the Ranger tree itself...

    Fleeting Instincts
    Escape Artist
    Pin Down

    So with that amount options to get out of melee and still maintain 61 points... this doesn't seem like a high priority QoL change that is needed at this time. If someone would like to make a strong case for this, by all means, do. The PM box is always open. =)
    Well, at the risk of sounding overly whiny, Ranger is the only ranged soul in Rift that has to deal with this sort of headache and there's nothing in the soul by way of compensation for it.

    In groups/raids it's the same sort of nuisance as Reavers having to backpedal a few steps to refresh DoTs with Shadow of Dread. Yes you can, usually, get around it with a bit of extra hassle but there's no reason for it. It's just an annoyance for the sake of being an annoyance; it doesn't add any extra flavour or such to the soul.

    Since you brought up PvP... Rangers really are just lunch to melee players because of the no-melee restriction, they're totally helpless against them. Believe me, Pin Down is worse than useless in a group environment with all the various AoE splashes and DoTs being thrown around by your team; it will break before your following GCD is over and trigger everyone's Root Immunity that was "hit" by it.


    I really like Gery's suggestions of swapping a couple of MM talents around. It would give Rangers the option to spec for the extra 5M range and remove the dead zone in melee, impact on the structure of both souls would be minimal too.

    - Swap Barbed Shot amd Close Quarters Combat. This drops CQC to 11 points where Rangers can actually reach it.
    - Swap Deadye Shot and Electrified Munnitions. When sub-speccing Marksman this will allow Electrified Munnitions to be picked up as a second weapon enchantment (having two is pretty much a must for Rogue DPS these days).

  4. #364
    Champion of Telara Veldan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WhozDat View Post
    That's the thing. The situations where hitting in melee would be *nice* are niche and concerned only with pvp at the moment;
    eh no, not even gonna bother listing the amount of meleeable expert and raid fights

    Quote Originally Posted by WhozDat View Post
    In the cases of stacking in melee in pve, if you're using a ranged build over a melee build, in a fight where you stack in melee, you're already gimping yourself by reducing your dps potential signifigantly.
    Yes, so don't play a ranged build there? I don't understand what you're trying to say.

    Quote Originally Posted by WhozDat View Post
    There's no logical reason for ranger to not be like every single other ranged soul in the game, considering it gains no benefits at all over similar ranged dps classes (Necro for example. They have similar dps potentials, are both dps pet classes, and yet, necros can hit in melee?)
    When you're playing a ranged soul, you're doing this to be at range, since if you were gonna be in melee, then a melee soul is better anyway cause melee DPS > ranged DPS. This difference between a ranger and necromancer is (talking PvE here) not really noticable, because nobody that plays necromancer goes into melee, and neither should you if playing ranger.

    For the record, I don't think the non-melee part of ranger is a good thing... but neither do I understand the amount of whining about it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Scyd View Post
    Really? Let's look at the top ranged DPS souls for other classes: Tempest, Inq, Pyro (soon Warlock). In what situations are those not competitive and viable?
    Can't speak for everything cause I haven't played everything. But pyro sucks with a lot of movement, while ranger has only instant casts so can do 100% dps when moving around. Generally though I was more talking about melee situations. No ranged soul has competitive DPS when melee range is available. In a way ranger is teaching people to play properly there, cause it forces you to switch to a melee soul.

    Quote Originally Posted by Scyd View Post
    Unless you're suggesting that players shouldn't play ranged and just play melee instead, which only goes to show how gimped rogue is since it would be the only class that limits the players to melee only classes for some content.
    You see it as limiting, I see it as steering people in the right direction. Learn to play assassin, learn to play bladedancer, and you'll be doing a ton more DPS in melee fights than you ever could with ranger if the devs gave it melee range.

  5. #365
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    Quote Originally Posted by WhozDat View Post
    It's links, it's ugly (Both the heal and the damage mit) completely ignore valor?
    Just have to correct you here but, there is no ignoring valor.
    Valor is passive mitigation.
    Links/monster/Tank CD's are all consider part of the active category, so they function multiplicatively.
    If they didn't, you'd literally be dealing no damage at all.

  6.   Click here to go to the next Rift Team post in this thread.   #366
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eione View Post
    Vladd, there is no need to overcomplicate things.
    61 Ranger is the only ranged spec in the game which has minimal range. Why?
    It's terribly annoying on some raid fights for no reason.
    If an encounter strategy is reliant upon stacking on a mob where the 3m minimal range is an issue... then I'm gonna ask the same question as Whozdat and Veldan of why folks aren't swapping out to melee souls for those encounters.

    So, why is a Ranger more desirable in those close quarter encounters over the melee souls?

  7. #367
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vladd View Post
    If an encounter strategy is reliant upon stacking on a mob where the 3m minimal range is an issue... then I'm gonna ask the same question as Whozdat and Veldan of why folks aren't swapping out to melee souls for those encounters.

    So, why is a Ranger more desirable in those close quarter encounters over the melee souls?
    Fights have different phases and different people can have different jobs. Good example is Ultane where you use ranged dps on turrets and ranged dps is also much easier on the adds but especially on the last boss burn phase everyone stacks in melee and dps the boss. Rogue doesn't currently have a ranged spec that could do that properly because MM lacks the dps and ranger can't dps in melee range. Or hardmode Progenitor which is mostly a ranged fight but it also has a mechanic which forces everyone to occasionally stack in melee.

  8. #368
    Rift Disciple TheCrazyKlown's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vladd View Post
    If an encounter strategy is reliant upon stacking on a mob where the 3m minimal range is an issue... then I'm gonna ask the same question as Whozdat and Veldan of why folks aren't swapping out to melee souls for those encounters.

    So, why is a Ranger more desirable in those close quarter encounters over the melee souls?
    because they are bad @ melee and dont look at what would actually be help full. So many rogues use sub-par builds for so many encounters. Their problem IMO

    Leave the range on ranger as is, other things should be changed,

    :::Blade Dancer::: QoL
    make Deadly strike a 20m ranged finisher
    or change flash of steel to a ranged cool down like paragon has
    Crit RnG is an issue,

    :::Nightblade::: QoL
    Flame Bltiz - Spread all Stacks for FS @ 5 Combo Points - Would be nice as long as it still spreads 1 stack for the 1st 4 combo points

    :::Ranger:::
    Twin Shot - Crit rate varies so bad its not even funny, its a "i hope i get lucky this time" kind of thing
    Min is range is fine, let them whine

    ill list other stuff later im off work now take care vlad

  9. #369
    Plane Walker
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    Perhaps those in charge of making design decisions for rogues should sit at a computer with a level 60 rogue for a few hours. Any competent, level 60 rogue that does multiple specs for solo, group, raid, and pvp content could illustrate most things within 5 hours or so.

  10. #370
    Ascendant Primalthirst's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gery View Post
    Fights have different phases and different people can have different jobs. Good example is Ultane where you use ranged dps on turrets and ranged dps is also much easier on the adds but especially on the last boss burn phase everyone stacks in melee and dps the boss. Rogue doesn't currently have a ranged spec that could do that properly because MM lacks the dps and ranger can't dps in melee range. Or hardmode Progenitor which is mostly a ranged fight but it also has a mechanic which forces everyone to occasionally stack in melee.
    There's absolutely no reason that someone else can't kill the turrets and absolutely no reason you have to stack in the final phase. If you choose to use a strategy that makes Ranger sub-optimal then you shouldn't be trying to play it. There's no fight where you cannot play melee and Tempest/Inquisitor/Pyromancer are on par if not better than Ranger anyway so there's no reason Rogues have to be the one playing ranged if you ever need a certain number of them.

    I completely understand how having a dead zone could be frustrating but complaining it isn't optimal on some encounters isn't really a thing. No spec is optimal in every situation. Do I think you need to have it? No. Have I heard any Rogue I know mention it? Only once.
    Last edited by Primalthirst; 12-08-2013 at 02:23 PM.
    Nope.

  11. #371
    Rift Disciple TheCrazyKlown's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gery View Post
    Fights have different phases and different people can have different jobs. Good example is Ultane where you use ranged dps on turrets and ranged dps is also much easier on the adds but especially on the last boss burn phase everyone stacks in melee and dps the boss. Rogue doesn't currently have a ranged spec that could do that properly because MM lacks the dps and ranger can't dps in melee range. Or hardmode Progenitor which is mostly a ranged fight but it also has a mechanic which forces everyone to occasionally stack in melee.
    for ulthane, thats comes down to a raid comp problem then, HM prog, NB can do more in range than a MM, again its a problem with figuring out what specs to run when and why

  12. #372
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    Quote Originally Posted by Primalthirst View Post
    There's absolutely no reason that someone else can't kill the turrets and absolutely no reason you have to stack in the final phase. If you choose to use a strategy that makes Ranger sub-optimal then you shouldn't be trying to play it. There's no fight where you cannot play melee and Tempest/Inquisitor/Pyromancer are on par if not better than Ranger anyway so there's no reason Rogues have to be the one playing ranged if you ever need a certain number of them.

    I completely understand how having a dead zone could be frustrating but complaining it isn't optimal on some encounters isn't really a thing. No spec is optimal in every situation. Do I think you need to have it? No. Have I heard any Rogue I know mention it? Only once.
    So what you are saying is that ranger does not need buffs or quality of life improvements because it's so bad that people shouldn't use it? That's kind of weird logic. I know I can play melee and I almost exclusively do just that because the ranged specs are not good enough to be used.

  13. #373
    Ascendant WhozDat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Katosu View Post
    Just have to correct you here but, there is no ignoring valor.
    Valor is passive mitigation.
    Links/monster/Tank CD's are all consider part of the active category, so they function multiplicatively.
    If they didn't, you'd literally be dealing no damage at all.
    Your completely misunderstanding. Links gain their full unaltered benefit in pvp, while next to nothing else does. Ugly mitigation is also ignoring it, so is cov, guard and BiA.

    The difference is, the main purpose of defiler, which is mitigation, completely ignores valor, and is thusly, much too strong, for it to remain unaltered if we remove the one niche sin has ever had on a competitive (5v5)scene, for the sake of making someone's PuGing experience better.

    It doesn't become 50% reduced intercepted, like all shields/heals do, it doesn't become 25% normal value, like all damage does, it functions closer and stronger due to this, then any soul in the game currently; followed closely by Dom.
    Last edited by WhozDat; 12-08-2013 at 02:37 PM.
    The only rogue troll who does better with his warrior and plays his warrior more then his rogue.

    Kaesola@Deepwood (Formerly Kaesoia/Kaesola@Wolfsbane); Miafereen@Wolfsbane (Formerly Malesh@Laethys)

  14. #374
    Plane Walker Eione's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vladd View Post
    If an encounter strategy is reliant upon stacking on a mob where the 3m minimal range is an issue... then I'm gonna ask the same question as Whozdat and Veldan of why folks aren't swapping out to melee souls for those encounters.

    So, why is a Ranger more desirable in those close quarter encounters over the melee souls?
    Gery already answered this one. But yeah, last GA boss, Ultane, is maybe the best example.
    Tactics for the kill can of course be different but one of them includes raid stacking on melee range on boss and with few people assigned on killing turrets. Ranger (rogue top dps ranged soul) sometimes gets that job and because turrets are not up all the time you need to dps the boss. And minimal range makes that....difficult.

    On that fight you can have all players standing in melee range but you will still need at least some ranged players. If that ranged player is running inquisitor, pyromancer, tempest etc. he will not have any problems with minimal range, but if he is playing a ranger he most definitely will.
    So simple question is why?

    And Whozdat and Veldan are both starting from a false premise -> that fight is either melee or ranged, when in reality a lot of fights have different phases, different things to hit, and you will have both ranged and melee in the same fight.

    Same as Primal and Crazy...both completely missing the point.

    Answer me simple question, both of you, why does ranger has to be the only ranged class in Rift with minimal range? What makes it that special? It has some advantages over tempest, pyro and inq so it has to be gimped when standing in melee range?
    Thank you for your answer.

  15. #375
    Ascendant WhozDat's Avatar
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    Also edit timer: I just went, and retested it for the 5th time, average damage without 30% link, 1300(1296)~, over 100 shots. Average damage with 30% link, 900(891)~

    I see what you're saying, I just don't understand how it's not multiplicitive, even though every number I've ever seen drawn, and drawn myself, contradicts your claims.
    Last edited by WhozDat; 12-08-2013 at 02:46 PM.
    The only rogue troll who does better with his warrior and plays his warrior more then his rogue.

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