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  Click here to go to the first Rift Team post in this thread.   Thread: Rogue buffs

  1. #346
    Ascendant WhozDat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orangu View Post
    We never assume it, yet it is the core issue that pvp has right now. people don't want to learn and why should those that do put the hours upon hours of time in to learn every aspect of every class get penalized because Casual Cameron wants to spam Viod Bolt?

    Skill should be rewarded, and since it isn't that much right now, noone even cares to learn how to win because they can just spam macros and do it anyways. (provided they rely on the people that spam them better to actually win)

    Skill isn't rewarded on anything but a healer.

    No amount of skill with 3 dps involved, can kill 2 healers at this moment. Only a lack of skill from the 2 healers can.

    If *I* am *skilled* enough to recognize and counter my opponent, my options shouldn't be *wait until they make a mistake and hope we can capitalize off of it, because even when they do, it will take 3 dps to do it* or *roll a dom*, it *should* be, if a healer makes a mistake, 2 dps should have strong chance of killing them. As it stands, a defiler and a sent can facetank people for 5-6 minutes if they're actually played well. The issue is there's really only 3 good defilers left in the game, thank god. And among them, Mired doesn't play his cleric much, one of the others quit, and the other only heal bots rogues.

    I'm fine with dps not being the answer to everything, but a defiler+puri/sent shouldn't be the answer to every single healing need in the game. As it stands, a defiler is completely and utterly necessary to healing through anything in the game for a meaningful amount of time.

    That you *don't* think defiler is borderline OP, if not outright OP, blows my mind, and shows your arguments are likely completely made by an emotional response, rather then a thought-out post and argument.

    Your lack of even acknowledging that dps in the game could possibly be as skilled as healers, is even more mind blowing.
    Last edited by WhozDat; 12-07-2013 at 03:52 PM.
    The only rogue troll who does better with his warrior and plays his warrior more then his rogue.

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  2. #347
    RIFT Guide Writer Orangu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WhozDat View Post
    Skill isn't rewarded on anything but a healer.

    No amount of skill with 3 dps involved, can kill 2 healers at this moment. Only a lack of skill from the 2 healers can.

    If *I* am *skilled* enough to recognize and counter my opponent, my options shouldn't be *wait until they make a mistake and hope we can capitalize off of it, because even when they do, it will take 3 dps to do it* or *roll a dom*, it *should* be, if a healer makes a mistake, 2 dps should have strong chance of killing them. As it stands, a defiler and a sent can facetank people for 5-6 minutes if they're actually played well. The issue is there's really only 3 good defilers left in the game, thank god. And among them, Mired doesn't play his cleric much, one of the others quit, and the other only heal bots rogues.

    I'm fine with dps not being the answer to everything, but a defiler+puri/sent shouldn't be the answer to every single healing need in the game. As it stands, a defiler is completely and utterly necessary to healing through anything in the game for a meaningful amount of time.

    That you *don't* think defiler is borderline OP, if not outright OP, blows my mind, and shows your arguments are likely completely made by an emotional response, rather then a thought-out post and argument.

    Your lack of even acknowledging that dps in the game could possibly be as skilled as healers, is even more mind blowing.
    Want to know how hard defiler is? Apply bonds when not needing to heal, spread you HoT around, spam instant cast heals and if someone needs more healing use explosive growth, and have your 30 and 20% links on whoever is getting bursted, save your CD for when someone you care about is about to die, and run away when you get focused and LoS. oh and keep buffs up and regen mana when needed, that's about it. Does that honestly sound hard to you?
    Granted it's a lot harder than DPS because you have to constantly swap targets and prioritize who needs what, dps all you need to do is follow the same rotation all the time, maybe throw a cc out every 10 seconds, and hope your healers can heal you through their team's focus fire.

    saying you hope defiler sent and puri shouldn't be the answer to all dps in the game is also odd since that's 3 out of the five healing souls in the game and the only three that can single target heal well in pvp.

    Defiler has one way to avoid death, and once it's gone they are dead. This is why EVERY 5v5 EVER they cc the sentinel and kill the defiler, because the defiler is the easiest to kill.


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  3. #348
    Ascendant WhozDat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orangu View Post
    Want to know how hard defiler is? Apply bonds when not needing to heal, spread you HoT around, spam instant cast heals and if someone needs more healing use explosive growth, and have your 30 and 20% links on whoever is getting bursted, save your CD for when someone you care about is about to die, and run away when you get focused and LoS. oh and keep buffs up and regen mana when needed, that's about it. Does that honestly sound hard to you?
    Granted it's a lot harder than DPS because you have to constantly swap targets and prioritize who needs what, dps all you need to do is follow the same rotation all the time, maybe throw a cc out every 10 seconds, and hope your healers can heal you through their team's focus fire.

    saying you hope defiler sent and puri shouldn't be the answer to all dps in the game is also odd since that's 3 out of the five healing souls in the game and the only three that can single target heal well in pvp.

    Defiler has one way to avoid death, and once it's gone they are dead. This is why EVERY 5v5 EVER they cc the sentinel and kill the defiler, because the defiler is the easiest to kill.
    Whelp, you just showed you haven't done 5s in recent memory. A puri+defiler will laugh at cc, our puri solo healed through Screamos premade, and montage's, for our win. We also ran the puri+sent combo, and lost the attrition battle against a defiler to the point that their defiler had 75% of his mana, their puri, had 90%, because you *can't* heal through damage *without* a defiler.

    Synthesis is terrible ST heals. Also any sort of sent/puri hybrids are terrible. Sent+Puri, is horrible.

    But defiler+sent, or defiler+puri, are god tier.

    Also sent is now completely obsolete in the face of puri atm in 5s. By a large margin.


    Do you notice the common factor?

    You CC and focus the defiler, not because he's easiest to kill, but because defiler is the much bigger threat. A defiler also has the fact that it has absolutely no range requirements, when it's the focus; meaning it decides where the battle is. It effectively heals, through LoS, and disregards valor.

    Defiler *is* hard, but the issue is, it ignores every rule every other pvp build is forced to abide by, for it's main source of output. It's links, it's ugly (Both the heal and the damage mit) completely ignore valor?

    I've shown you numbers, and whether you believe them or not, you're perfectly able to go parse them, and look at them, just pull your combat logs. See how much damage you took from your links. Then do the math. You effectively *Healed* that much, at a cost of negligible mana, no gcd, and paid a small amount of "Blood" for this.

    I'm sorry, I don't think the mana burn is balanced against sent or the lesser healers in the game, but against a defiler? It's the only solid counter to them, or AP, which is also something that's broken and needs to be fixed. The fact that it's a long duration silence that also doesn't trigger DR is the only counter to a defiler specifically, that isn't mana drain.
    Last edited by WhozDat; 12-07-2013 at 06:28 PM.
    The only rogue troll who does better with his warrior and plays his warrior more then his rogue.

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  4. #349
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    Thread is derailed to PvP again but anyway:

    Quote Originally Posted by Sorano View Post
    Also can you please change Shadow of Dread's range to 0-20m. It would be a QoL change for reavers since the range is currrently set at 3-20m, which means we have to backup in order to use the ability when tanking.
    Quote Originally Posted by Vladd View Post
    Certainly can address Shadow of Dread. I'll put that on the list.
    Ranger range QoL incoming?

  5.   Click here to go to the next Rift Team post in this thread.   #350
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scyd View Post
    Thread is derailed to PvP again but anyway:

    Ranger range QoL incoming?
    First off, I'm gonna assume that this is a PVP-centric request because Rangers have tank pets that do a fine job of keeping mobs out of their dead zone.

    Secondly, I have to look at all of the options that the rogue has at their disposal to get out of melee before considering that sort of change.

    Off the cuff though and assuming just 61 Ranger... Close Quarters Combat is a 16 point investment in Marksman. That takes it out of the equation.

    Still, 0 points in Riftstalker gives Shadow Shift. 0 in Marksman gives Shift Shot and On the Double. 11 points in Bladedancer gets Sprint. 6 points in Marksman gives Repelling Shot which can be talented into affecting 5 targets for 11 points. There is also Hasty Departure in Marksman for 11 points invested too.

    Then if you look at the Ranger tree itself...

    Fleeting Instincts
    Escape Artist
    Pin Down

    So with that amount options to get out of melee and still maintain 61 points... this doesn't seem like a high priority QoL change that is needed at this time. If someone would like to make a strong case for this, by all means, do. The PM box is always open. =)

  6. #351
    Prophet of Telara Fiskerton's Avatar
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    Actually, I think the Ranger issue is more about those pve fights where you pretty much have to stack in melee

    Since you're here anyway Vladd, can Riftstalker have some energy regen in Planar Rejuvenation please? =3
    Last edited by Fiskerton; 12-07-2013 at 09:49 PM.
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  7. #352
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vladd View Post
    First off, I'm gonna assume that this is a PVP-centric request because Rangers have tank pets that do a fine job of keeping mobs out of their dead zone.
    Not at all, my only issue is with PvE content, and I'll list some actual situations:

    1. Raid stacking: The first boss of the first raid (Zoles in TDQ) already give me this problem since everyone must stack tightly behind the boss to mitigate the AoE damage.

    2. World/duo content: With healers around, and decent gear + Fury buff, most world content mobs can be tanked by any DPS, therefore there's no need for a tank pet. However, when ranger gets aggro he has to run to continue DPS, and this a) lowers DPS for raptor pet, b) causes every melee player in the party/raid to hate you. It's the same for duo content when you are able to tank the damage but must still move just to continue DPS.

    3. Solo content: Not as common, but first boss of ID chronicle is a good example. You have to stick next to him so you can move ASAP to any of the 3 crystals to avoid damage, but with ranger you must stand more to one side instead of stacking on him.

  8. #353
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vladd View Post
    First off, I'm gonna assume that this is a PVP-centric request because Rangers have tank pets that do a fine job of keeping mobs out of their dead zone.

    Secondly, I have to look at all of the options that the rogue has at their disposal to get out of melee before considering that sort of change.

    Off the cuff though and assuming just 61 Ranger... Close Quarters Combat is a 16 point investment in Marksman. That takes it out of the equation.

    Still, 0 points in Riftstalker gives Shadow Shift. 0 in Marksman gives Shift Shot and On the Double. 11 points in Bladedancer gets Sprint. 6 points in Marksman gives Repelling Shot which can be talented into affecting 5 targets for 11 points. There is also Hasty Departure in Marksman for 11 points invested too.

    Then if you look at the Ranger tree itself...

    Fleeting Instincts
    Escape Artist
    Pin Down

    So with that amount options to get out of melee and still maintain 61 points... this doesn't seem like a high priority QoL change that is needed at this time. If someone would like to make a strong case for this, by all means, do. The PM box is always open. =)
    No one who cares about efficiency does solo pve with ranger because the pig is not that great of a tank and if you have the pig then you sacrificed your damage already anyway. Doing it with selfheals and raptor however would be a lot better option if ranger could do something in melee range, which it can't so it's not an option.

    The optimal subsouls for ranger are assassin and NB because it needs to spec for weapon enchants so a ranger by default does not have access to any mobility without sacrificing varying amounts of dps. Only somewhat viable subsoul options which give mobility are 12 assassin plus 3 in either rs or 3 in MM. Even with those ranger is one of the least mobile souls. Taking BD as subsoul, using Fleeting instincts or going deeper into MM are so big dps drops that it's pointless to use ranger at that point.

    Pin Down is practically useless for both pve and pvp, it's a root that breaks on damage and it's the only CC ranger has. Blinks and knockbacks are very temporary against any melee characters. Gap closers and pulls are at much lower cooldowns and they are very plentiful. Most melee can also snare ranger for more than it can access speed boosts while ranger itself lacks snares, and the melee themselves also have access to a lot of run speed buffs or passives. Ranger is not escaping from any melee in pvp for more than a second or two. It would be silly to even think about using ranger for pvp.

    Then we have raiding. There none of the speed boosts and CC matter at all and it's all about where you are supposed to stand. If it means stacking in melee range then that's where you stand. Usually this isn't as huge problem as it might seem because the 3 meter restriction is to the center of hitbox so for example on a boss like Regulos you can easily stand with the rest. It is a problem on bosses with small hitboxes where stacking in melee is the usual tactic such as Ultane and ranger has no tools to combat that other than just doing his own thing and putting the raid in some extra danger.

    Now if some of the talents in MM were to be shuffled around like I have suggested (swapping places of Deadeye Shot and Electrified Munitions, swapping places of Close Quarters Combat and Barbed Shot) then ranger could actually have the tools available to deal with this stuff with a build like this: http://rift.magelo.com/en/soultree#zkllaGGlaB4/A90E/ye
    Electrified Munitions and Virulent Poison would be the weapon enchants and MM would provide the same range increase as everyone else has plus the ability to dps in melee range along with On the Double.

    Or you could just remove the melee restriction from ranger and MM abilities because they are archaic remnants from 3 years ago and even non-rogues agree that it's one of the stupidest things in the game. However even then you should still swap the places of Electrified Munitions and Deadeye Shot in MM to give ranger better subsoul options.

  9. #354
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    If It counts for pvp, I'm a 61 MM and I root rangers then stack right on top of them, then kill them, then laugh.

    Otherwise, ranger is simply problematic. Why impose penalties on a soul for stacking in melee, when it already presents a large dps loss for using that specific ranged soul over a melee soul, if you are going to stack in melee anyways?

    For soloing. Yeah, you survive longer with spirit and a raptor then the pig, and can kite mobs more then adequately as it stands with no improved movement, to actually never lose a gcd of time due to the no melee mechanic. The only thing allowing them to have melee shots would cause would be allowing them to actually stand there and not have to press arrow keys.
    The only rogue troll who does better with his warrior and plays his warrior more then his rogue.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vladd View Post
    First off, I'm gonna assume that this is a PVP-centric request because Rangers have tank pets that do a fine job of keeping mobs out of their dead zone.
    Suggestion:

    Start 2 threads, one for PvE and one for PvP. Delete posts which cross this border intentionally. Temp ban all trolls coming to the "wrong" thread.

    Otherwise this thread will derail into PvP again and rogues gain nothing out of this.

  11. #356
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scyd View Post
    Not at all, my only issue is with PvE content, and I'll list some actual situations:

    1. Raid stacking: The first boss of the first raid (Zoles in TDQ) already give me this problem since everyone must stack tightly behind the boss to mitigate the AoE damage.

    2. World/duo content: With healers around, and decent gear + Fury buff, most world content mobs can be tanked by any DPS, therefore there's no need for a tank pet. However, when ranger gets aggro he has to run to continue DPS, and this a) lowers DPS for raptor pet, b) causes every melee player in the party/raid to hate you. It's the same for duo content when you are able to tank the damage but must still move just to continue DPS.

    3. Solo content: Not as common, but first boss of ID chronicle is a good example. You have to stick next to him so you can move ASAP to any of the 3 crystals to avoid damage, but with ranger you must stand more to one side instead of stacking on him.
    1. don't play ranger in this situation
    2. don't play ranger in this situation
    3. there's enough speed buff options for this one

    You seem to want that ranger is a competitive and viable spec in every situation, but no soul in the game is that. RIFT is all about having multiple soul builds at your disposal to swap when your current one won't do well.
    Last edited by Veldan; 12-08-2013 at 12:48 AM.

  12. #357
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    Quote Originally Posted by Veldan View Post
    1. don't play ranger in this situation
    2. don't play ranger in this situation
    3. there's enough speed buff options for this one

    You seem to want that ranger is a competitive and viable spec in every situation, but no soul in the game is that. RIFT is all about having multiple soul builds at your disposal to swap when your current one won't do well.

    That's the thing. The situations where hitting in melee would be *nice* are niche and concerned only with pvp at the moment; and in pvp, none of the options, combined, and doubled, would solve the issue.

    In the cases of stacking in melee in pve, if you're using a ranged build over a melee build, in a fight where you stack in melee, you're already gimping yourself by reducing your dps potential signifigantly.

    There's no logical reason for ranger to not be like every single other ranged soul in the game, considering it gains no benefits at all over similar ranged dps classes (Necro for example. They have similar dps potentials, are both dps pet classes, and yet, necros can hit in melee?)
    The only rogue troll who does better with his warrior and plays his warrior more then his rogue.

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  13. #358
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    Quote Originally Posted by Veldan View Post
    You seem to want that ranger is a competitive and viable spec in every situation, but no soul in the game is that. RIFT is all about having multiple soul builds at your disposal to swap when your current one won't do well.
    Really? Let's look at the top ranged DPS souls for other classes: Tempest, Inq, Pyro (soon Warlock). In what situations are those not competitive and viable? Ranger is already limited by poor target switching and pet mechanics, why should it have an additional limitation that literally drops DPS to 0 and affects no other souls in the game.

    What do you suggest we switch to then? The only other ST ranged DPS soul is MM, and its DPS sucks. Unless you're suggesting that players shouldn't play ranged and just play melee instead, which only goes to show how gimped rogue is since it would be the only class that limits the players to melee only classes for some content.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Veldan View Post
    1. don't play ranger in this situation
    2. don't play ranger in this situation
    3. there's enough speed buff options for this one

    You seem to want that ranger is a competitive and viable spec in every situation, but no soul in the game is that. RIFT is all about having multiple soul builds at your disposal to swap when your current one won't do well.
    1 and 2 are kind of the rogue thing right now, not just for ranger but for most souls. But "play a different spec" is a bad way to keep a calling interesting when that good spec often doesn't even exist. Our builds are often so niche that we are left with a bunch of second rate options. It doesn't have to be viable for every situation but having it viable only for raids where you do not need to stack in melee and you do not need to switch targets or aoe and pet doesn't bug or die is not good design and kind of a waste.

    To me Rift is not about just swapping to the one specific soul combination that happens to work for each fight, it's about having options and being able to play in various different ways depending on what you actually enjoy playing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vladd View Post
    First off, I'm gonna assume that this is a PVP-centric request because Rangers have tank pets that do a fine job of keeping mobs out of their dead zone.

    Secondly, I have to look at all of the options that the rogue has at their disposal to get out of melee before considering that sort of change.

    Off the cuff though and assuming just 61 Ranger... Close Quarters Combat is a 16 point investment in Marksman. That takes it out of the equation.

    Still, 0 points in Riftstalker gives Shadow Shift. 0 in Marksman gives Shift Shot and On the Double. 11 points in Bladedancer gets Sprint. 6 points in Marksman gives Repelling Shot which can be talented into affecting 5 targets for 11 points. There is also Hasty Departure in Marksman for 11 points invested too.

    Then if you look at the Ranger tree itself...

    Fleeting Instincts
    Escape Artist
    Pin Down

    So with that amount options to get out of melee and still maintain 61 points... this doesn't seem like a high priority QoL change that is needed at this time. If someone would like to make a strong case for this, by all means, do. The PM box is always open. =)
    My issue with it is purely casual PvE. I started this thread a little while ago before I saw it was being discussed here: http://forums.riftgame.com/game-disc...rs-combat.html

    In tight spaces indoors it's annoying to have to move out just to use my Ranger abilities. My pet has aggro, there is no alarm. It's just annoying that I have to move away and manage the finnicky camera viewpoint when no one else would have to do that.

    Or if you get multiple aggro and any mob comes too close to you, no matter if it's perfectly safe and you get your pet to regain all aggro right away.

    No one may even be hitting you. The mob just happens to be close to you for whatever reason and you want to attack it like every other player can do.

    There is simply no important reason why rangers should have a minimum range when no one else has it. It can only be annoying (and confusing for new players). There are no gameplay benefits for anyone.
    Last edited by Beringer; 12-08-2013 at 05:13 AM.

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