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Thread: Questions about the DPS specs (Min/Maxing PvE)

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    Shadowlander Bhindrin's Avatar
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    Default Questions about the DPS specs (Min/Maxing PvE)

    So I am a Mage main and am looking to start gearing my Rogue for raids. I like to have a firm grasp on the current metagame before I go into a raid so I do not hinder my group. To that end I would greatly appreciate help on determining which specs are ideal for certain situations.

    From looking around the guides section on here it seems like there are five solid ST DPS specs (Sin, NB, BD, Rng, MM), and I would like to know more about their advised usage in raids. Please assume this is all for a T1 raid geared Rogue.

    From what I can gather on the forums:

    Assassin is excellent (top?) DPS for melee friendly encounters when you are able to stay in melee range (specifically behind the boss) at all times. The spec does poorly when dealing with disconnects and has no AoE ability whatsoever.

    Nightblade is good DPS and is able to handle disconnects more efficiently than any other Rogue melee build. Nightblade also has very good cleaving DPS.

    Bladedancer is one I can't seem to find anything solid on. Half the comments I see say that BD is in a bad place right now and is outclassed by most other specs but then other people are suggesting it as a good spec to use and that most people just play it wrong. Does anyone have any solid ideas about this build?

    Ranger seems to be top ranged DPS for single target encounters. It has less target swapping ability than MM and less utility but ultimately does more DPS. How does this spec compare to Sin or NB? I know ranged specs are designed to deal a little less damage than melee specs, does that hold true for Rogues?

    Marksman is the "goto" spec that almost every Rogue has and uses on almost every fight. It has good ST DPS, good target swapping, and lots of utility (interrupt, purge, movement speed, etc). How is this specs' DPS compared to the above specs?

    Any feedback on my noob analysis would be great!

    ----

    Two more questions:

    1) Does anyone know what the DPS order is for parsing on a dummy? From what I have gathered it goes something like:
    1. Assassin
    2. Ranger
    3. Nightblade
    4. Bladedancer
    5. Marksman

    But as I have not been able to do any concrete parsing myself (I wish I had that kind of time), I cannot confirm this.

    2) I'm sure this may change by the time I get to T2s but which specs are most recommended for T2 content?

    Thank you in advance for all of your help!
    Last edited by Bhindrin; 10-16-2013 at 01:43 PM.

  2. #2
    RIFT Guide Writer TheGrinnz's Avatar
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    I am not sure if Ranger is above NB/BD. Marksman is decent ST DPS but I wouldn't say it's good. It is primarily used because it is ranged, flexible, has utility, and is simple. In other words it's used if you need the utility or you aren't good enough at ranger/NB/assassin.

    Bladedancer has higher AoE than any of the other specs listed but it has nothing much for disconnects. NB has amazing disconnect/ranged ability but its AoE is not as good (but better than Assassin and Ranger).

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheGrinnz View Post
    it's used if you need the utility or you aren't good enough at ranger/NB/assassin.
    Actually I don't see what's the hard thing about ranger, to me it's just keeping up 3/4 buffs and debuffs. You don't even have to memorize a rotation to way out DPS MM.

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    RIFT Guide Writer TheGrinnz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scyd View Post
    Actually I don't see what's the hard thing about ranger, to me it's just keeping up 3/4 buffs and debuffs. You don't even have to memorize a rotation to way out DPS MM.
    Unlike most other specs with multiple buffs and debuffs, most of the timers do not match up, that's what makes it difficult. Abilities lining up in a rotation or abilities you can refresh concurrently is easier for some. With differing timers you are pretty much forced to stare at the buff timers or kalert. That is why I find Ranger more difficult, anyway. But you are correct it is easy to outdo MM with it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Scyd View Post
    Actually I don't see what's the hard thing about ranger, to me it's just keeping up 3/4 buffs and debuffs. You don't even have to memorize a rotation to way out DPS MM.
    Thats true but compared to people using 2 buttons spam + finisher for dps in a mm thats vastly more complicated. On top of that with the constant run speed buffs on a mm its easier for people to dodge mechanics on a mm since they can be slower to react.

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    RIFT Guide Writer Nynja's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheGrinnz View Post
    Bladedancer has higher AoE than any of the other specs listed but it has nothing much for disconnects. NB has amazing disconnect/ranged ability but its AoE is not as good (but better than Assassin and Ranger).
    Untrue. BD has good burst AOE but low sustained AOE..NB is visa-versa and the AOE DPS is still the best we have at the moment( tac/sab excluded)

    @OP:
    Assasin is roughly at 25k at dummy pts (DC's aren't so bad because the main dps comes from dots and poisons.

    NB is at 24k (btw it has incredible burst)
    BD is at 23k (far more worse in DC than Sin)
    Ranger is at 22k (4k from pet)
    MM is at 21k

    >all rough estimates, no warranty
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    Champion Fudily's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nynja View Post
    Untrue. BD has good burst AOE but low sustained AOE..NB is visa-versa and the AOE DPS is still the best we have at the moment( tac/sab excluded)
    In real world application, BD has the best AoE.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gunzip View Post
    I wish there was a way to record combat logs.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gunzip View Post
    Why can't sab have GTAE for its traps? This cast time is really lame, its 2014, make it so.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheGrinnz View Post
    Unlike most other specs with multiple buffs and debuffs, most of the timers do not match up, that's what makes it difficult. Abilities lining up in a rotation or abilities you can refresh concurrently is easier for some. With differing timers you are pretty much forced to stare at the buff timers or kalert. That is why I find Ranger more difficult, anyway. But you are correct it is easy to outdo MM with it.
    That's true I guess, I stare at my alerts most of the time. I simplified it further for myself by macroing Piercing Shot and eat that DPS loss than track another debuff.

    Quote Originally Posted by sancin View Post
    Thats true but compared to people using 2 buttons spam + finisher for dps in a mm thats vastly more complicated. On top of that with the constant run speed buffs on a mm its easier for people to dodge mechanics on a mm since they can be slower to react.
    Actually, if you're trying to maximize MM DPS and weaving in DES amongst RFS and HS, it's significantly harder to play MM. You have to note when FR is up or almost up, and also track RFS since it's a DPS increase to use it off CD.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nynja View Post
    Untrue. BD has good burst AOE but low sustained AOE..NB is visa-versa and the AOE DPS is still the best we have at the moment( tac/sab excluded)

    @OP:
    Assasin is roughly at 25k at dummy pts (DC's aren't so bad because the main dps comes from dots and poisons.

    NB is at 24k (btw it has incredible burst)
    BD is at 23k (far more worse in DC than Sin)
    Ranger is at 22k (4k from pet)
    MM is at 21k

    >all rough estimates, no warranty
    Recently posted parses, following the little buff BDs got on the PTS, seems to have bumped BD up to around 24k.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bhindrin View Post
    Assassin is excellent (top?) DPS for melee friendly encounters when you are able to stay in melee range (specifically behind the boss) at all times. The spec does poorly when dealing with disconnects and has no AoE ability whatsoever.

    Nightblade is good DPS and is able to handle disconnects more efficiently than any other Rogue melee build. Nightblade also has very good cleaving DPS.

    Bladedancer is one I can't seem to find anything solid on. Half the comments I see say that BD is in a bad place right now and is outclassed by most other specs but then other people are suggesting it as a good spec to use and that most people just play it wrong. Does anyone have any solid ideas about this build?

    Ranger seems to be top ranged DPS for single target encounters. It has less target swapping ability than MM and less utility but ultimately does more DPS. How does this spec compare to Sin or NB? I know ranged specs are designed to deal a little less damage than melee specs, does that hold true for Rogues?

    Marksman is the "goto" spec that almost every Rogue has and uses on almost every fight. It has good ST DPS, good target swapping, and lots of utility (interrupt, purge, movement speed, etc). How is this specs' DPS compared to the above specs?
    Assassin: Assassin is rogue's top single target dps. The disconnect penalty only really starts affecting you if you need to stand at range for extended periods of time, if it's just using a few swift shots and then going back to melee it's no big deal.

    Nightblade: NB is bad dps and can't cleave at all anymore except with Living Flame once per minute. It handles disconnects well but if you need to switch targets it's horrible.

    BD: Great burst aoe, has a 90+ second rotation that doesn't generally align with raid cooldowns or encounter timers naturally, can't handle disconnects at all. If the encounter happens to be ideal for BD then it can be very good, other times it can be the worst spec in the game.

    Ranger: Ranger is about the same dps as NB and BD but that is mostly because NB and BD dps on live is bad. Ranger is quite competitive ranged single target dps when compared to other callings as long as you don't need to swap targets or interrupt and the pet functions properly.

    Marksman: You are wrong here. MM has the lowest dps of any single target spec in the game and part of that dps (decoy) can even die to random aoes. MM is the last spec in the line of what a rogue should ever be using. It's what you fall back on if nothing else works or you just really need that utility. It is good at target switching and utility but it's rare for them to be valuable enough to be used in a raid.

  12. #12
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    Just look at Assassin and Ranger. Sab for trash clears.

    The effort you have to put into BD is not worth the mediocre DPS and NB is just bad. Once you learn your timing of your dots on Assassin and Ranger, disconnects shouldn't be a big issue.

    MM, like Gery said, is just bad. Most of the time you will have another person in the raid playing a good DPS spec that has the same utility as a MM (purge and interrupt). If you are just getting started with raiding, unless you have a group that can carry you, I would start with MM to learn the fights then switch quickly to RNG or SIN.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gery View Post
    BD: Great burst aoe, has a 90+ second rotation that doesn't generally align with raid cooldowns or encounter timers naturally, can't handle disconnects at all. If the encounter happens to be ideal for BD then it can be very good, other times it can be the worst spec in the game.
    The Bladedancer soul is played to perfection:

    Salvarola
    Gelidra
    matriarch
    Regulos
    Mordan and viktus

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    RIFT Guide Writer TheGrinnz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Energie View Post
    The Bladedancer soul is played to perfection:

    Salvarola
    Gelidra
    matriarch
    Regulos
    Mordan and viktus
    why would you consider BD good for salvarola? to aoe the wisps sometimes?

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    Champion Fudily's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Energie View Post
    The Bladedancer soul is played to perfection:

    Salvarola
    Gelidra
    matriarch
    Regulos
    Mordan and viktus
    I wouldn't consider BD good for Salvarola, Ranger is usually your best bet due to disconnects.
    Haven't done Gelidra in a long time but HM Gelidra is usually done with Tact or Sab.
    Never tried BD on Matriarch but I'm pretty sure Tact is the most useful build there, Sab would probably be good too but we don't stack the adds close enough in our strat.
    BD is great for Regulos, performs about the same as NB.
    BD is great for Mordan and Viktus, performs about the same as NB.
    Once the PTS changes go through BD will be godly on Inyrk'ta.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gunzip View Post
    I wish there was a way to record combat logs.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gunzip View Post
    Why can't sab have GTAE for its traps? This cast time is really lame, its 2014, make it so.

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