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Thread: Searing vs Invigorating

  1. #1
    Shadowlander
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    Default Searing vs Invigorating

    Which one is better?

  2. #2
    Prophet of Telara Fiskerton's Avatar
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    Well do you want AP or CP more?
    ~ | Fiskerton | Fiskermage | Fiskerheals | Fiskerbear | ~

    I'm a homeless stray of a raider

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    I want to play sin

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fiskerton View Post
    Well do you want AP or CP more?
    I know where your going with this "Searing for CP and Invigorating for AP" But I want to know which one is weighted better because the charts say Invigorating is better but I see most high end rogues using Searing.

  5. #5
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    I'm assuming this is the same person I spoke to this morning and you are posting here to make sure I'm right, so I'll post the math here and let the trolls and flamers say what they will.

    Invigorating 81 proc AP:
    Proc AP means its spell AP, does not scale with souls or any other stacking bonuses like flaring. However, it does still retain gains from crit and CP. In this way it is exactly like weapon stones, so rather than wasting plat on Invig and doing a bunch of number checks while Invig is proc'd and god knows what else is up, we will just use a honed edge from PA (80 AP).

    Searing pure damage, no modifiers:
    Pure damage proc, does an initial hit and then a dot. Having been using Searing a long time I can tell you it averages about 60 dps in raids.

    Because spell AP does not get modified by % boosters you cannot just give it a 1 point value and calculate it like a stat weight, and even if you could, theres no way to compare it to a dps proc, so we will convert the AP directly to DPS, and then compare the 2 procs.

    The way we do this is take the dmg from every ability, top and low, and average them out, then add a honed edge, and do the same.

    I will limit my math to the abilities I actually use to save space.
    Without stone (AP greater):
    Jagged Strike | 15526
    Backstab | 6088 - 6729 = 6408.5
    Leaping Plunge| 2982 - 3296= 3139
    Puncture | 1144 - 1265 & 5028 = 2479
    Savage Strike| 2859 -3160 = 3009.5
    Serpent Strike| 6986 - 7722 = 7354
    Final Blow | 8897
    Impale | 15704
    Malicious Poi. | 2412
    Virulent Poi. | 2051
    Lethal Poi. | 1906

    Now for the uneducated or unknowning in order to average you take all your numbers, and add them, then divide by the number of additives. First you need an average for all of your abilities with multiple ends of damage, my Backstab for example: 6088+6729/2=6408.5

    Once we have single sets of numbers for every ability we add all 11 up and divide by 11, the number we get is the average damage for every ability, so then you have an average damage per ability, mine is 6262. What this means to you is if all my abilities were clickable (IE not procs like poisons) and I didn't use anything off gcd like serpent strike I were to hit 1 ability, every 1 second, and rotated through my entire rotation of 11 abilities, I would be doing an average of 6262 DPS.

    Now assassin is obviously significantly higher than that, mostly because of off gcd abilities like poisons and serpent strike, and then add buffs from raid and you've got yourself a 20-25k parsing spec. Fortunately spell AP is only effected by 2 things, crit, and CP, so the rest of the additions and calculations that make sin jump from 6k to 20k, do not apply to this formula

    Without AP(Greater/Stone) Average Damage per ability: 6262
    With AP(Greater/Stone) Average Damage per ability: 6323

    6323 - 6262 = 61 basic DPS, but we're not quite done. these numbers are missing crit/CP modifiers, as well as calculations for the greater not having a 100% up time.

    For those that don't know crit adds 50% of your attack onto your hit, and CP adds a % of that crit on top of that. so with 30% crit and 40% CP a 100 damage attack will get +50 for critting, and another +20 for CP (40% of 50 is 20) totaling 170 based off crit and CP, but we only crit 30% of the time.

    Now I've tutor'd math in college but I am no math wiz so I find it easier to just assume crit rate is 100% but I believe if you take the 100% crit rate, add the cp, then minus 70% of that number, it should be fairly close to an accurate number. So for crit at 100% we add 30.5 + another 30% (my CP is 30.70%) and we get a number that rounds up to 40.

    61+40 = 101 dps on a 100% up time greater with 100% crits

    And if my earlier assumption works, we take 70% away from 40 to get 28

    61+28 = 89 dps on a 100% up time greater with 30% crits

    Now having tested myself and verified by others the Invig greater has about an 80% up time, so we remove 20% of the damage from either calculation

    101 - 20% = 81 (amusing how that came out right?, but remember, honed edge is only 80 AP, so dont make stupid assumptions.)

    89 - 20% = 71

    So in both cases the Invigorating comes out on top of Searing, however, we still have to look at the stats of the lessers you are putting the greaters into, now your results will vary on how much better the fire lesser is than the air lesser depending on how high you weight CP, personally, I hate CP, I won't be stacking it until my crit can get back up to 40% off equipment, I weight it extremely low around 50's, and the fire greater is still better than the air by more than 10 or even 20 dps.

    I won't be checking back on this, so take it for what it's worth but the only people I've seen worth respecting here are Gery and Muspel so unless they are the ones saying something is wrong, ignore stupid people.

  6. #6
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    One thing worth mentioning is that the AP proc is effected by damage % modifiers, like cloak and dagger, and wild growth/power core, if someone wants to do the hard math that might pull invigorating much closer to the searing

  7. #7
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    Dunno why I cant edit my own posts, but this is a rough estimate, if you want an exact count of the dps Invig gives you, go parse for 4 minutes and add 70 or so dmg to 80% of the hits on the abilities above, but that would still be inaccurate unless you used hypatia to get timestamps of when cloak and dagger went up and fell off.
    Last edited by orbitzalot; 10-15-2013 at 03:38 PM.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by orbitzalot View Post
    I'm assuming this is the same person I spoke to this morning and you are posting here to make sure I'm right, so I'll post the math here and let the trolls and flamers say what they will.

    Invigorating 81 proc AP:
    Proc AP means its spell AP, does not scale with souls or any other stacking bonuses like flaring. However, it does still retain gains from crit and CP. In this way it is exactly like weapon stones, so rather than wasting plat on Invig and doing a bunch of number checks while Invig is proc'd and god knows what else is up, we will just use a honed edge from PA (80 AP).

    Searing pure damage, no modifiers:
    Pure damage proc, does an initial hit and then a dot. Having been using Searing a long time I can tell you it averages about 60 dps in raids.

    Because spell AP does not get modified by % boosters you cannot just give it a 1 point value and calculate it like a stat weight, and even if you could, theres no way to compare it to a dps proc, so we will convert the AP directly to DPS, and then compare the 2 procs.

    The way we do this is take the dmg from every ability, top and low, and average them out, then add a honed edge, and do the same.

    I will limit my math to the abilities I actually use to save space.
    Without stone (AP greater):
    Jagged Strike | 15526
    Backstab | 6088 - 6729 = 6408.5
    Leaping Plunge| 2982 - 3296= 3139
    Puncture | 1144 - 1265 & 5028 = 2479
    Savage Strike| 2859 -3160 = 3009.5
    Serpent Strike| 6986 - 7722 = 7354
    Final Blow | 8897
    Impale | 15704
    Malicious Poi. | 2412
    Virulent Poi. | 2051
    Lethal Poi. | 1906

    Now for the uneducated or unknowning in order to average you take all your numbers, and add them, then divide by the number of additives. First you need an average for all of your abilities with multiple ends of damage, my Backstab for example: 6088+6729/2=6408.5

    Once we have single sets of numbers for every ability we add all 11 up and divide by 11, the number we get is the average damage for every ability, so then you have an average damage per ability, mine is 6262. What this means to you is if all my abilities were clickable (IE not procs like poisons) and I didn't use anything off gcd like serpent strike I were to hit 1 ability, every 1 second, and rotated through my entire rotation of 11 abilities, I would be doing an average of 6262 DPS.

    Now assassin is obviously significantly higher than that, mostly because of off gcd abilities like poisons and serpent strike, and then add buffs from raid and you've got yourself a 20-25k parsing spec. Fortunately spell AP is only effected by 2 things, crit, and CP, so the rest of the additions and calculations that make sin jump from 6k to 20k, do not apply to this formula

    Without AP(Greater/Stone) Average Damage per ability: 6262
    With AP(Greater/Stone) Average Damage per ability: 6323

    6323 - 6262 = 61 basic DPS, but we're not quite done. these numbers are missing crit/CP modifiers, as well as calculations for the greater not having a 100% up time.

    For those that don't know crit adds 50% of your attack onto your hit, and CP adds a % of that crit on top of that. so with 30% crit and 40% CP a 100 damage attack will get +50 for critting, and another +20 for CP (40% of 50 is 20) totaling 170 based off crit and CP, but we only crit 30% of the time.

    Now I've tutor'd math in college but I am no math wiz so I find it easier to just assume crit rate is 100% but I believe if you take the 100% crit rate, add the cp, then minus 70% of that number, it should be fairly close to an accurate number. So for crit at 100% we add 30.5 + another 30% (my CP is 30.70%) and we get a number that rounds up to 40.

    61+40 = 101 dps on a 100% up time greater with 100% crits

    And if my earlier assumption works, we take 70% away from 40 to get 28

    61+28 = 89 dps on a 100% up time greater with 30% crits

    Now having tested myself and verified by others the Invig greater has about an 80% up time, so we remove 20% of the damage from either calculation

    101 - 20% = 81 (amusing how that came out right?, but remember, honed edge is only 80 AP, so dont make stupid assumptions.)

    89 - 20% = 71

    So in both cases the Invigorating comes out on top of Searing, however, we still have to look at the stats of the lessers you are putting the greaters into, now your results will vary on how much better the fire lesser is than the air lesser depending on how high you weight CP, personally, I hate CP, I won't be stacking it until my crit can get back up to 40% off equipment, I weight it extremely low around 50's, and the fire greater is still better than the air by more than 10 or even 20 dps.

    I won't be checking back on this, so take it for what it's worth but the only people I've seen worth respecting here are Gery and Muspel so unless they are the ones saying something is wrong, ignore stupid people.
    I don't understand the wall of text are you saying Invigorating is better?

  9. #9
    Telaran
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThunderBuddies View Post
    I don't understand the wall of text are you saying Invigorating is better?
    I don't even know where to begin with you... The text is actual useful, relevant data. It's reading comprehension and basic math.

    He says:

    "...the fire greater is still better than the air by more than 10 or even 20 dps."

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by reecew View Post
    I don't even know where to begin with you... The text is actual useful, relevant data. It's reading comprehension and basic math.

    He says:

    "...the fire greater is still better than the air by more than 10 or even 20 dps."
    look at this moron thinking he knows something

    "So in both cases the Invigorating comes out on top of Searing"[/QUOTE]

    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...M0loWkE#gid=14

    can someone like Gery or Muspel please comment on this.
    Last edited by Jester; 10-17-2013 at 03:15 PM.

  11. #11
    Ascendant Zazen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by orbitzalot View Post
    ...
    I hate CP, I won't be stacking it until my crit can get back up to 40% off equipment, I weight it extremely low around 50's
    ...

    Incorrect. For every single build possible except Bard and, to an extent, Ranger.
    Last edited by Zazen; 10-17-2013 at 03:11 PM.

  12. #12
    Shadowlander
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zazen View Post
    Incorrect. For every single build possible except Bard and, to an extent, Ranger.
    Hey bud what would you recommend i use searing or invigorating

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