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Thread: NBSIN, 3rd row of sin tree..

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    Plane Touched Harby's Avatar
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    Default NBSIN, 3rd row of sin tree..

    With the change to primal death NBSIN will obviously now use Primal Strike instead of Savage Strike. Problem is, how to build the 32sin part of the build. Till now Murderous Intent was a nice filler to skip the useless (for nbsin) 3rd row of sin tree, but now Murderious Intent becomes irrelevant as well since pretty much all NBSINs damage will be non-physical.

    So any ideas?

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    Soulwalker
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    As for Sin I found murderous intent is the only talent we do have to fill the gaps to hit 32 into sin.

    NB I had a bigger problem getting Primal Death

    What I have found dropable to get Primal Death 3/3:
    1) No points int Scorch and Wither (minimal talent benefit)
    2) No Twilight Force (Swift Shot can make up for it)

    Debate for 3)
    Flame Blitz - Is it even worth AOEing in this spec anymore?
    Ignited Weapons - 1 pt removal (Doesn't have full uptime because SOD doesn't reapply)
    Blazing Fury - 1 pt removeal (only a 2% reduction on CP generating abilities)
    Flame Thrust - Provides no melee dps gain but huge for disconnects
    Last edited by Krieet; 10-02-2013 at 03:04 PM.

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    RIFT Guide Writer
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    NB/Sin is a dead spec with the current Flame Blitz. There is very little point in having a spec which loses its single target dps while using almost half a minute to ramp up to a mediocre aoe dps. It can't cleave and it can't aoe so what is left is just a bad single target spec.

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    Shadowlander
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    I was able to do some testing with possible dropped points; personally, I was getting the highest dps dropping the 1 point in Scorch and Wither and dropping 2 points in Blazing Fury, as it really isn't 4% damage to those abilities and you really cannot drop anything else--you would never want to drop Twilight Force, as it simply deals much more damage than Swift Shot for disconnects and is counted as a melee ability, that is, it will proc/keep up melee-only trinkets and Serrated Blades.

    That being said, there are a few fights where I can see NB/SIN being relevant; primarily fights where you would run 61SIN but are unable to do so due to target switching or disconnects, such as Breaker x1.
    "These are not the stats you are looking for... PA bonuses, Greater Essence & Trinket procs, weapon enchantments, and Readiness are not affected by talents or raid buffs. Stat weights refer to 'raw' stats on gear--stats which are affected by talents & buffs--so they cannot be equally applied to any of the aforementioned." - FattSlice

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    Plane Touched Harby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fattslice View Post
    That being said, there are a few fights where I can see NB/SIN being relevant; primarily fights where you would run 61SIN but are unable to do so due to target switching or disconnects, such as Breaker x1.
    61sin is fine for breaker, there was never any reason to use nbsin instead.

    And yes Gery, I think nbsin is dead
    Last edited by Harby; 10-03-2013 at 04:39 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Harby View Post
    And yes Gery, I think nbsin is dead
    I am kinda confused why everyone thinks this.

    Where does NB/SIN shines vs 61 SIN?

    In fights where "dot spreading" is necessary, e.g. Kain and Salvarola. It is never a replacement for ST since 61 SIN is much better in those situations even with DC's and target swaps.

    Now as I understand the change, you need a full 5 combo points to guarantee that you flame spike spreads to the other targets. The best method, due to slow ramp up and energy starvation, for spreading dots is to do one aoe builder (usually gives you one point unless fire chains is off cd), then cast flame blitz to spread your fire spike. BUT (correct me if I am wrong cause I am no expert) when facing Kain and/or Salvarola you always do a full 5 pt combo build before casting flame blitz, since on Kain you never stop dps'ing Kain, and on Sav you want to burn the enraged add as quickly as possible and are only using dot spread to put secondary damage on main boss.

    tl;dr NB/sin isnt "dead". It still does what it always did, just needs a few tweaks.

  7. #7
    Prophet of Telara Fiskerton's Avatar
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    What the one point finisher does is spread 1 stack of fiery spikes onto adds. Before, it took 10 GCDs to spread 5 stacks onto adds. With the new change it will take 25 (and bloods come up every 30 seconds). The fiery spike stacks (along with lethal poison) is the reason to use NB/sin on Kain because normal aoe was reduced
    Last edited by Fiskerton; 10-03-2013 at 12:38 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fiskerton View Post
    What the one point finisher does is spread 1 stack of fiery spikes onto adds. Before, it took 10 GCDs to spread 5 stacks onto adds. With the new change it will take 25 (and bloods come up every 30 seconds). The fiery spike stacks (along with lethal poison) is the reason to use NB/sin on Kain because normal aoe was reduced
    That is definitely a valid point. So, I guess the question remains do we now use 61 sin for basically everything or does 61 NB become useful for Kain and Sav?

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    Quote Originally Posted by OmegaDagger View Post
    That is definitely a valid point. So, I guess the question remains do we now use 61 sin for basically everything or does 61 NB become useful for Kain and Sav?
    Use 61 Sin if you can. 61 NB can be used for certain fights where you need some burst AoE. I did use NB/Sin (and then 61 NB) for Salv for some time, but I have swapped over to 61 Sin because it's just much faster that way. As for Kain, I guess you can run 61 NB there if you want, or just let your Shamans do the blood handling.

    Edit: I will agree that NB/Sin is more or less of a dead spec now anyway, although it's only tiny advantage is the potential for AoE lethal poison debuffing.
    Last edited by Adastra; 10-03-2013 at 02:25 PM.
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    Ascendant Galibier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gery View Post
    NB/Sin is a dead spec with the current Flame Blitz. There is very little point in having a spec which loses its single target dps while using almost half a minute to ramp up to a mediocre aoe dps. It can't cleave and it can't aoe so what is left is just a bad single target spec.
    And this boggles my mind. Didn't Ailion say he wanted to keep NB/Sin viable?
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    RIFT Guide Writer Muspel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Galibier View Post
    And this boggles my mind. Didn't Ailion say he wanted to keep NB/Sin viable?
    I believe he said that back when NB and BD were much weaker than they are now. NB/Sin was important because it was both effective and somewhat flexible.

    But we now have options to fill those gaps, so if NB/Sin is a casualty of fixing the many issues with Expose Weakness, it's not such a big deal.

  12. #12
    Ascendant Rounded's Avatar
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    I'm 100% sure Ailion mentioned something about making 1-CP finisher spam for NB/Sin less attractive no more than 3 weeks ago, but forum search is failing me badly due to how it works (not well). I've just waited for this change from the point he mentioned that because all other "less attractive" means "always at 5CP, no creativity or modifying allowed!".

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harby View Post
    61sin is fine for breaker, there was never any reason to use nbsin instead.

    And yes Gery, I think nbsin is dead
    The dps margin between 61sin and 44nb is around 2K dps on the foundry using live gear (not the garbage PTS crap), this is over a 10min parse in optimal conditions with no target switching or disconnects; I honestly cannot see how people claim 61sin is good for Breaker...

    Not sure how your guild runs it, but with the repeated target switching and disconnects due to cleaves, tacticians, golems, and the portal phase, not to mention being in front of the boss 50% of the time, I see no way 61sin can outdps 44nb as the latter does not suffer anywhere near the dps loss in these conditions.

    For the record, in a direct gear transfer from live to PTS, I am hitting around 22.8K dps in 44nb and 25K~ on 61sin (hard to parse as SA doesn't like to play nice with dots). So either you guys are bad at 44nb or I am bad at 61sin--and I just know I am going to get trolled on that, so have at it.
    "These are not the stats you are looking for... PA bonuses, Greater Essence & Trinket procs, weapon enchantments, and Readiness are not affected by talents or raid buffs. Stat weights refer to 'raw' stats on gear--stats which are affected by talents & buffs--so they cannot be equally applied to any of the aforementioned." - FattSlice

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    Making Flame Blitz only apply Fiery Spike with 20% chance per combo point was actually part of a list of suggestions I made for Ailion. However he didn't do the rest of the list which would have kept NB/Sin as viable. Before this the highest dps rotation for NB/Sin was just spamming 1 combo points Flame Blitzes with a priority system of builders in between. You could even macro everything into one button and do about 95% of its maximum dps. It was silly and the third time the same one button macro spam build had turned up.

    Here's the rest which I am still hoping for to happen:
    1. Flame Blitz should spread all stacks of Fiery Spike from main target to the other targets hit.
    2. Flame Blitz should be included in Lingering Flame, Nightrage and Nightstalker.

    The result would be that NB/Sin and NB aoe abilities would have a role and that would be efficient cleaving. We would then have 61 sin for single target, BD for burst aoe and NB+NB/Sin for more sustained cleaving.

    Maybe the next hotfix turns out better.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fattslice View Post
    The dps margin between 61sin and 44nb is around 2K dps on the foundry using live gear (not the garbage PTS crap), this is over a 10min parse in optimal conditions with no target switching or disconnects; I honestly cannot see how people claim 61sin is good for Breaker...

    Not sure how your guild runs it, but with the repeated target switching and disconnects due to cleaves, tacticians, golems, and the portal phase, not to mention being in front of the boss 50% of the time, I see no way 61sin can outdps 44nb as the latter does not suffer anywhere near the dps loss in these conditions.

    For the record, in a direct gear transfer from live to PTS, I am hitting around 22.8K dps in 44nb and 25K~ on 61sin (hard to parse as SA doesn't like to play nice with dots). So either you guys are bad at 44nb or I am bad at 61sin--and I just know I am going to get trolled on that, so have at it.
    There are no boss disconnects due to cleaves, you can be in melee range of boss 100% of the time. If you mean champion cleaves then you can position behind them in melee. 61 Sin is actually a lot better at target switching than NB/Sin. 80%+ of the positional dps loss is due to not being able to backstab and NB/Sin suffers from that too just as much. Leaping Plunge sees a lot of use on the adds, you get in range quickly with 61 Sin while NB/Sin has to run around without any real gap closer. 61 Sin has a stun. 61 Sin can have Cloak and Dagger damage reduction up all the time inside the AI core.

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