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Thread: MM is too strong in warfronts

  1. #1
    Shadowlander
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    Default MM is too strong in warfronts

    This is straight up qq, but I honestly believe it is warranted. There is no weakness to this soul. I can't melee them. They passively move faster than everyone else, and have more escape mechanisms than anyone has means of staying on them. I can't fight them as a caster soul within a mile of anything that breaks line of sight. I can't survive 1 of them attacking me as my only healing soul. There should always be trades for being great at something. Doing best possible damage, from best possible range, with best mobility, and fantastic utility is just too much. It isn't fun to play against something that's uncounterable.

    commence flaming.
    Last edited by Weavols; 09-29-2013 at 08:45 PM.

  2. #2
    Ascendant WhozDat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Weavols View Post
    This is straight up qq, but I honestly believe it is warranted. There is no weakness to this soul. I can't melee them. They passively move faster than everyone else, and have more escape mechanisms than anyone has means of staying on them. I can't fight them as a caster soul within a mile of anything that breaks line of sight. I can't survive 1 of them attacking me as my only healing soul. There should always be trades for being great at something. Doing best possible damage, from best possible range, with best mobility, and fantastic utility is just too much. It isn't fun to play against something that's uncounterable.

    commence flaming.
    Stun them or mez then. Or just outright kill them, they're pretty squishy.

    However, let's dig more into this, as I seem to think you're missing a few things that could help you:

    Melee that's viable in this game have no issues meleeing them, yes, I'm aware warriors are somewhat boned in this department.

    Pyro: Stun them.
    Healer: Pacify them or rift tomb them
    Dom: Drain them (extremely energy heavy build, MMs are)
    Inq: Just face tank them while doing as much damage as them
    Sin: Stun them
    NB: Just attack them, and outlast them

    In the end, killing an MM takes quite a bit of knowledge of the rogue class, whether or not it's a good thing is another discussion. As a rule, if you see a rogue in a warfront, stun/mez it, rogues have a decent barrier between good damage having a second break free, unlike other classes, and are very susceptible to mez's of any kind.

    As a healer, it's relatively easy to heal through an MM in a warfront if you keep your buffs up (Key here), LoS around a nearby pillar/terrain while healing yourself and others.

    In the end, MMs have their own suite of strengths which are basically directly comparable to Inqs, which trade mobility for a slew of CCs, and reliable heavy damage, for incomparable survivability. Mages trade sustained damage, for the highest on demand burst in the game available to a ranged soul, and mobility for a set of very potent cc tools and a break free that also teleports.

    Warriors are the only class that has no options to compete atm, and even then, it's a bare thing.
    The only rogue troll who does better with his warrior and plays his warrior more then his rogue.

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  3. #3
    Plane Walker
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    Marksman's damage and range are good, but not an area that's unmatched. Most ranged souls have just as much range and sometimes more damage. Their only special thing is mobility, and there's a few trade-offs:
    - They barely have any CC of their own, only a ST root.
    - They are very squishy, their only survivability tools are, you guessed it, mobility. They have no heal/shield or CC break.

    P.S. I guess their purge is pretty strong too, but it doesn't seem you have problems with that.

    EDIT: I guess lack of CC is less significant in group PvP due to the DR mechanics, making additional CC not as useful.
    Last edited by Scyd; 09-30-2013 at 02:24 AM.

  4. #4
    Shadowlander
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    I appreciate the constructive ideas on how to combat a MM, but I feel you guys are being disingenuous about the "weaknesses" it has. To say they're squishy sounds silly to me (I play a mage). Every rogue has >10% more hp than I do and better armor. You're no more vulnerable to a stun than anyone else is, it's just the 1 thing you can't become immune to while running away at light speed. You do not have a lack of cc. I spend more time being pushed around by MM knockbacks than any other form of cc in a warfront because there's no immunity. Pillar humping makes you actually work for a kill, but you have better tools to kill a pillar humper than anyone else. There's nothing stopping you from following the dude around the pillar point blank pretending you're a melee, or repeatedly shoving him out from behind it. With fully mobile instant dps you are THE kings of pillar humping. Being energy drained may be the most effective way of stopping you from killing people, but only because it's so difficult to actually kill you, and still far less detrimental than losing a mana bar to drain because you're guaranteed to get the energy back.

  5. #5
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    Their armor has nothing to do with a mages attacks. All spells bypass all armor. It's the resists that matter, and most players of equal gear will have equal resist.

    Like Whozdat said, as a Pyro, stun theme, root them, flicker, stun again (AoE.
    Don't use warlock, if that's what you're doing..
    Harbinger can kill them, it's harder, but your port will stun them, you nave a snare, and a stun, and by that time your charge should be up again. And you can run just as fast as them.

    If a MM has a pocket healer, yes, they will be hard to kill. Stun the healer, kill the MM. Try more cc on them, it makes a difference.

  6. #6
    Rift Master Fudge's Avatar
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    MM is a really squishy spec, I run it mostly for eradicate. I see a lot more rogues going ranger (I guess crit twin shot is just too nice).
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  7. #7
    RIFT Guide Writer Hokonoso's Avatar
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    sounds like the OP wants to beat MM with HIS spec, not the spec that mages can roflstomp mm with... sorry this game has rock>paper>scissors when it comes to pvp, you can kill an mm, but you have to spec for it, there is no other way around this. Pyro can literally just stand there and ignore everything and kill an mm outright with simple dps being higher, not to mention the disarm/stun(s) etc... many chloro specs are worthless to MM, but not ALL of them, some can simply heal all day long while the mm gets bored and there is NOTHING the mm can do to stop them. locks/necros will just die, good harbs can roflstomp an mm, but you have to know what you are doing etc... and doms are so OP that i have no idea why the OP isn't play the OP class that is known as dom (see what i did there?).

    so stop being a bad chloro and get rid of warlock for pvp as it's clear this is what you are doing, either that or you are facing full warlord mm's and dont stand a chance anyways.
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  8. #8
    Soulwalker
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    What level are you? I hate the "if not 60 your opinion doesn't matter" line, but in this case it really does change as the levels go by. At low levels, as a MM, I felt invincible as long as I ran away if dots were getting stacked on me. They run fast, do good damage, get a silence at relatively low level, it's pretty awesome.

    Then at some point mages got their stuns, and life got interesting. If you want to kill a MM reliably, watch for any other dps on your team to attack them, then stun them and burst as hard as you can. Without a pocket healer 2-3 good dps can always kill me during the duration of the pyro stun (and any class with a pocket healer is ridiculous). If you don't have someone to help damage them though, you're right that the MM will likely get away.

    My suspicion about why MM feels OP sometimes (despite mage stuns sometimes i still feel unkillable) is because there's usually so little coordination in pvp. There are games when the other team lets me run into their lines to chase down a fleeing target, and when this happens I can only imagine the "OMG MM OP, they're so fast and have such crazy range," when the real problem was their team was so tunnel visioned that I could do that and run away. Other games, there are warriors guarding healers and using the pull, and the mages/assassins set up stuns for each other and it's easy for me to get worked up about how "OP" stuns are.

    It's like the anti-warrior. With an uncoordinated team, playing warrior sucks! Warriors tend to need heals, damage coming in from behind them, and at least one or two other people helping take some hits, because the one big guy standing among your team hitting all of you is an obvious target for anyone and they'll go down fast. With a good team though, they can basically choose anyone and let their team kill them with pull + root, or utterly disrupt your team if they get into you with heals and backup.

    tl;dr when you see someone else focusing a MM, stun it, burst, and watch it die, the rest of the time hope your teammates don't all have tunnel vision/decide to sacrifice you for another objective.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Weavols View Post
    This is straight up qq, but I honestly believe it is warranted. There is no weakness to this soul. I can't melee them. They passively move faster than everyone else, and have more escape mechanisms than anyone has means of staying on them. I can't fight them as a caster soul within a mile of anything that breaks line of sight. I can't survive 1 of them attacking me as my only healing soul. There should always be trades for being great at something. Doing best possible damage, from best possible range, with best mobility, and fantastic utility is just too much. It isn't fun to play against something that's uncounterable.

    commence flaming.
    Lol you are crazy.

    Quote Originally Posted by WhozDat View Post
    Stun them or mez then. Or just outright kill them, they're pretty squishy.

    However, let's dig more into this, as I seem to think you're missing a few things that could help you:

    Melee that's viable in this game have no issues meleeing them, yes, I'm aware warriors are somewhat boned in this department.

    Pyro: Stun them.
    Healer: Pacify them or rift tomb them
    Dom: Drain them (extremely energy heavy build, MMs are)
    Inq: Just face tank them while doing as much damage as them
    Sin: Stun them
    NB: Just attack them, and outlast them

    In the end, killing an MM takes quite a bit of knowledge of the rogue class, whether or not it's a good thing is another discussion. As a rule, if you see a rogue in a warfront, stun/mez it, rogues have a decent barrier between good damage having a second break free, unlike other classes, and are very susceptible to mez's of any kind.

    As a healer, it's relatively easy to heal through an MM in a warfront if you keep your buffs up (Key here), LoS around a nearby pillar/terrain while healing yourself and others.

    In the end, MMs have their own suite of strengths which are basically directly comparable to Inqs, which trade mobility for a slew of CCs, and reliable heavy damage, for incomparable survivability. Mages trade sustained damage, for the highest on demand burst in the game available to a ranged soul, and mobility for a set of very potent cc tools and a break free that also teleports.

    Warriors are the only class that has no options to compete atm, and even then, it's a bare thing.
    I agree we are squishy. When I play MM spec I say its hit and miss. I get a lot of kills or I am getting wrecked. I am curious what level and prestige level OP is.
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  10. #10
    Champion of Telara
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    Rogue MM does to much damage considering the utility and escape mechanics available to the soul. This is based on the pvp dynamics currently implemented in the game. It is what it is.

    The OP is correct but the real issue for MM is the damage. The other abilities of the soul are fine if damage were adjusted down.

    Pvp is kind of a mess currently. The last pvp revamp for rogues essentially ruined competitive pvp. I realize these changes were in response to overbuffing mages and clerics but broken is broken. The last thing this game needed were buffs to rogues for pvp.

    Send in feedback in the game because based in the responses in this thread there is little hope of a honest discussion on the topic. This is in addition to forum posts.

    I feel your pain OP and I truly wish Trion would balance this game.
    Last edited by Sidvader; 09-30-2013 at 10:11 AM.

  11. #11
    Ascendant WhozDat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Weavols View Post
    I appreciate the constructive ideas on how to combat a MM, but I feel you guys are being disingenuous about the "weaknesses" it has. To say they're squishy sounds silly to me (I play a mage). Every rogue has >10% more hp than I do and better armor.
    Sounds like a gear problem in all honesty. They *Can* spec into the tank soul for more hp, but they also lose damage for doing so.

    Quote Originally Posted by Weavols View Post
    You're no more vulnerable to a stun than anyone else is, it's just the 1 thing you can't become immune to while running away at light speed.
    Actually rogues are one of the most vulnerable classes to stuns in general as both 61 sin and 61 MM ONLY have break free, and can only get a break free, while all the rest of the classes have access to a low point investment second break free (Flicker, Dark Passage and Elude). Meaning they can only get out of a stun every minute or so.


    Quote Originally Posted by Weavols View Post
    You do not have a lack of cc. I spend more time being pushed around by MM knockbacks than any other form of cc in a warfront because there's no immunity.
    Then they're in melee and likely pretty bad, as they're choosing to negate both their advantage of mobility and range, in order to knock a mage around for some odd reason. Plus, if your a mage, you DO have KB immunity, just chain channel fireballs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Weavols View Post
    Pillar humping makes you actually work for a kill, but you have better tools to kill a pillar humper than anyone else. There's nothing stopping you from following the dude around the pillar point blank pretending you're a melee, or repeatedly shoving him out from behind it. With fully mobile instant dps you are THE kings of pillar humping.
    People chasing healers around a pillar behind their team for the 30 seconds to a minute it takes a good MM to even put a good healer in the "Danger zone" comes down to your team being blind, not the MM being the king of pillar humping. Also our KBs do have decent CDs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Weavols View Post
    Being energy drained may be the most effective way of stopping you from killing people, but only because it's so difficult to actually kill you, and still far less detrimental than losing a mana bar to drain because you're guaranteed to get the energy back.
    It also takes about 10x as long to drain a mana bar then it does an energy bar. Once an MM reaches sub half energy, they begin to starve incredibly quickly, as their main energy recover tool, takes 49 energy to activate.
    The only rogue troll who does better with his warrior and plays his warrior more then his rogue.

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  12. #12
    Ascendant WhozDat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sidvader View Post
    Rogue MM does to much damage considering the utility and escape mechanics available to the soul. This is based on the pvp dynamics currently implemented in the game. It is what it is.

    The OP is correct but the real issue for MM is the damage. The other abilities of the soul are fine if damage were adjusted down.

    Pvp is kind of a mess currently. The last pvp revamp for rogues essentially ruined competitive pvp. I realize these changes were in response to overbuffing mages and clerics but broken is broken. The last thing this game needed were buffs to rogues for pvp.

    Send in feedback in the game because based in the responses in this thread there is little hope of a honest discussion on the topic. This is in addition to forum posts.

    I feel your pain OP and I truly wish Trion would balance this game.
    Can you at least leave the other forums alone without spreading and propegating your well known bias?

    I mean we all know you had no issues when RBs were literally 3 shotting everyone, and said rogues were on par with that preroguebuff, but give me a break here.
    The only rogue troll who does better with his warrior and plays his warrior more then his rogue.

    Kaesola@Deepwood (Formerly Kaesoia/Kaesola@Wolfsbane); Miafereen@Wolfsbane (Formerly Malesh@Laethys)

  13. #13
    Plane Walker
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sidvader View Post
    snip
    Didn't even have to read the post cuz I knew what you were gonna say from just your name

  14. #14
    Rift Disciple Dragonz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Weavols View Post
    This is straight up qq, but I honestly believe it is warranted. There is no weakness to this soul. I can't melee them. They passively move faster than everyone else, and have more escape mechanisms than anyone has means of staying on them. I can't fight them as a caster soul within a mile of anything that breaks line of sight. I can't survive 1 of them attacking me as my only healing soul. There should always be trades for being great at something. Doing best possible damage, from best possible range, with best mobility, and fantastic utility is just too much. It isn't fun to play against something that's uncounterable.

    commence flaming.
    This is easily the dumbest thing I've almost read on these forums. First and foremost, "Rift" is not centered on PvP, it's main function is PvE, sorry if you never got that memo. PvP as it has always been in Rift will be unbalanced and repetitive.
    -Smarted the Awesome

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by WhozDat View Post
    Can you at least leave the other forums alone without spreading and propegating your well known bias?

    I mean we all know you had no issues when RBs were literally 3 shotting everyone, and said rogues were on par with that preroguebuff, but give me a break here.
    Look man. MM does to much damage. It needs to be adjusted down. It is not my fault nor yours. The devs need to fix it. If the goal is a balanced game then you should be in favor of these types of adjustments. Finally, spouting out stupid regarding what RB could do damage wise just makes you look stupid.

    Trion just needs to balance the damn game. This has gone on long enough. That means rogue MM will take a nerf to damage.

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