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Thread: Sab/Sin 2013 (Now With Maths)

  1. #1
    Ascendant bitnine's Avatar
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    Default Sab/Sin 2013 (Now With Maths)

    54 Sab/22 Sin/0 MM - a spec with decent AoE potential, relatively high ranged ST, as well as Lethal Poison. If you don't mind the rotation, it's a handy spec to have.

    The build: http://www.rifthead.com/stc/zMMjwl0V0hLvyoVekVRVkgxk

    ST, 5 minute 29 second parse:

    Code:
    TYPE                DAMAGE     ENCDPS     AVERAGE    MINHIT  MAXHIT  HITS   CRIT%  
    All                 6,637,564  20,174.97  3,904.45   851     24,779  1,700  40%    
    Spike Charge        1,726,617  5,248.08   11,211.80  8,195   14,458  154    39%    
    Spike Bomb          1,114,739  3,388.26   2,423.35   1,613   3,245   460    41%    
    High Explosives     705,536    2,144.49   3,343.77   914     4,319   211    42%    
    Caltrop Charge      551,913    1,677.55   8,362.32   6,807   10,708  66     41%    
    Barbed Trap         395,316    1,201.57   3,294.30   2,157   4,399   120    33%    
    Chemical Bomb       357,016    1,085.16   1,298.24   959     1,646   275    42%    
    Annihilation Bomb   309,625    941.11     20,641.67  14,431  24,779  15     67%    
    Shrapnel Bomb       288,798    877.81     9,626.60   6,596   11,857  30     50%    
    Fragmentation Bomb  205,390    624.29     10,810.00  7,680   13,541  19     58%    
    Auto Attack         187,291    569.27     1,614.58   851     2,506   116    50%    
    Time Bomb           185,250    563.07     9,750.00   7,292   12,278  19     53%    
    Detonate            130,351    396.20     16,293.88  13,412  21,097  8      38%    
    Spotter's Order     123,783    376.24     1,331.00   1,331   1,331   93     0%     
    Cloud Maker         115,210    350.18     5,236.82   3,230   7,108   22     41%    
    Virulent Poison     63,474     192.93     1,670.37   1,201   2,060   38     50%    
    Booby Trap          53,528     162.70     13,382.00  9,186   15,225  4      75%    
    VotSW               48,860     148.51     3,490.00   3,140   3,774   14     0%     
    Lethal Poison       47,013     142.90     1,424.64   1,022   1,786   33     45%    
    Splinter Bomb       18,660     56.72      9,330.00   9,046   9,614   2      100%   
    Embers Bomb         9,194      27.95      9,194.00   9,194   9,194   1      100%
    The rotation:

    Spike Bomb/Barbed Trap/Chemical Bomb off cooldown, Booby Trap as a filler if Rapid Setup is about to pop and a single charge would be wasted. A single Time Bomb (or Cloud Maker) at the start of each rotation to keep up HE, and 4x Spike Bomb when Bombing Run comes up, followed by a Chemical Bomb (unless at 5 charges, then followed by Anibomb then Chem). Rapid Setup into 5x Caltrop Charge.

    Details

    Here's the bottom line: you end up using an average of a little under 13 seconds per Spike rotation, or between 4.6 and 5 rotations per minute. Spike deals 11,300 per tick 6 times, so 67,500 per detonation or 5,192 DPS given a 13 second interval. Given that Spike Charge/Detonate take 6 GCDs per rotation, you have around 32 GCDs to fill during a minute. 5 Time Bombs, 6 Spike Bombs, 6 Chemical Bombs, 4 Barbed Traps, 6 Bombing Run GCDs (4x Spike Bomb, 1x Chem Bomb, 1x Cloud Maker), 4 Rapid Setup GCDs (2x Caltrop, 2x Detonation Macro). That's 31 GCDs, without accounting for using a Booby Trap to avoid planting a single wasted charge before Rapid Setup comes off CD. Now, that's not exact, particularly given that Bombing Run alters the CD of your bombs and doesn't start it's own CD until the 3 bombs are tossed. But it's a good approximation.

    The secondary charge type, Caltrop, deals ~75% of the damage of Spike Charge. Spike Bomb deals just under 40% of Spike Charge, Barbed Trap and Annihilation Bomb just over and under 30% respectively, and then comes Chemical Bomb at 20%. Lower than that are Booby Trap, Cloud Maker, and Time Bomb. Because of this, Rapid Setup with Caltrop Charge is the biggest CD in the rotation, alongside Bombing Run with a set of Spike Bombs. Then there's maintaining HE, which is the reason Time Bomb is used, and why it's done as sparsely as possible.

    Blast Charge is terrible and near useless. It deals 29,500 damage ST (5 x 5,900), as opposed to Caltrop Charge at 49,800 (8,350 x 6) and is barely over a single Spike Bomb's 25,500 (10 x 2,550). The only time Blast could come out ahead is if the mob lives for 5 seconds or less after detonation; at the 6 second mark Caltrop overtakes Blast with or without Residual Shrapnel. The extra poison proc chances certainly don't make up for the raw damage loss. Blast Charge's damage would need to be boosted by around 40% just to bring it into parity.

    I was actually little surprised to see Lethal uptime around 85% as is. A benefit from the increased base poison proc chance. You could bring this higher by working more bombs, and using Time Bomb/Cloud Maker/Booby Trap closer to off CD, but that would incur a DPS loss.

    AE, 6 minute 29 second parse: (Hm, maybe I should get a second bag to rune and use that AE trinket.)

    Code:
    TYPE                DAMAGE      ENCDPS      AVERAGE    MINHIT  MAXHIT  HITS    CRIT%  
    All                 51,832,059  133,244.37  4,007.74   705     24,791  12,933  41%    
    Caltrop Charge      14,132,045  36,329.16   8,411.93   5,729   10,708  1,680   42%    
    Spike Bomb          10,589,488  27,222.33   2,406.70   1,445   3,248   4,400   41%    
    High Explosives     7,831,971   20,133.60   3,345.57   705     4,319   2,341   41%    
    Chemical Bomb       3,084,731   7,929.90    1,285.31   907     1,646   2,400   41%    
    Time Bomb           2,873,373   7,386.56    9,209.53   6,192   12,458  312     40%    
    Shrapnel Bomb       2,689,911   6,914.94    9,606.83   6,344   11,857  280     49%    
    Annihilation Bomb   2,466,052   6,339.47    18,132.73  12,024  24,791  136     38%    
    Cloud Maker         2,044,394   5,255.51    5,242.04   3,242   7,117   390     40%    
    Booby Trap          1,819,833   4,678.23    11,373.96  7,683   15,538  160     38%    
    Fragmentation Bomb  1,794,437   4,612.95    10,195.67  7,720   13,475  176     43%    
    Splinter Bomb       1,007,054   2,588.83    7,404.81   5,517   9,933   136     40%    
    Embers Bomb         619,009     1,591.28    7,737.61   5,750   9,956   80      50%    
    Auto Attack         223,961     575.74      1,599.72   788     2,542   140     42%    
    Shrapnel Charge     182,857     470.07      4,571.43   3,451   6,180   40      43%    
    Spotter's Order     142,417     366.11      1,331.00   1,331   1,331   107     0%     
    Virulent Poison     119,481     307.15      1,593.08   1,157   2,060   75      40%    
    Lethal Poison       80,831      207.79      1,443.41   1,026   1,786   56      48%    
    VotSW               74,608      191.79      3,552.76   3,150   3,825   21      0%     
    Detonate            55,606      142.95      18,535.33  13,412  21,097  3       67%
    The rotation: (priority, really)

    Maximum Caltrop Charge uptime, shooting for double ticks on re-application, so 4s of "filler" between. Rotate through all AE CDs, keeping an eye on when Spike Bomb and Time Bomb are coming off CD so that you don't overdo the fillers in that rotation and are then forced to choose between delaying them or lapsing Caltrop. Rapid Setup into Caltrop Charge and work those fillers some more, including Annihilation Bomb when 0 charges are applied. Activate Rapid Setup off CD, but don't apply Caltrop immediately - continue with fillers and use the charge application as a bridge if all fillers are down. Bombing Run into 4 Spike Bombs followed by Cloud Maker, making sure not to overwrite Time Bomb and let HE drop off 3 mobs.

    Details

    Here the secondary charge type, Shrapnel, deals just 47% of the damage of the primary Caltrop Charge - even less than a single Spike Bomb. That's compared to Caltrop doing 75% of the damage of Spike Charge. Cloud Maker is just under 40% of Caltrop, Annihilation just over 35%, and Chemical Bomb just over 25%. Booby Trap is down at 22%, Time Bomb at 18%, and Splinter/Ember bombs at around 15%. These ratios (poor secondary charge, bombs closer to primary charge) are why Rapid setup and even charges themselves are de-emphasized in AoE specs and rotations like the 1 button Sab.

    Much like Blast Charge, Shrapnel Charge is pretty bad, even in a spec that goes for Poison Potency to increase charge damage. To the point where you're better served by going with a Caltrop reapplication and using the saved GCDs to cycle through bombs and Booby Trap. Shrapnel Charge would likely need as large as a 40-50% damage boost to warrant consideration, and even then would need points in relevant talents. Until then, you'll generally maximize DPS by avoiding this ability, aside for perhaps a single use when opening with a pre-cooked Rapid Setup.

    This Sab/Sin goes the opposite route that those that de-emphasize charges, focusing on maximum Caltrop uptime to the exclusion of Shrapnel while still working in AoE Bombs/Trap as close to off CD as possible. It is impacted by energy starvation, something that you will notice particularly when trying to get through a Bombing Run. (I still think BR should also eliminate the energy cost of the 3 bombs it affects.) For HE, Time Bomb or the debuff bombs are refresh, as Cloud Maker doesn't hit 8 targets. Do note that Cloud Maker does cause High Explosives to tick immediately on each target for each explosion, though, so that secondary explosion triggers ~80k from 25 extra HE ticks.

    I believe that its ceiling is fairly high, but a caveat: the "rotation" is finnicky enough that some would consider it less practical in raids. For example, the AE parses I've done tend to have full or near-full Caltrop uptime and at least ~25% of the applications "double ticks" (12/35 in the parse above). I can bring that up higher, play around with the rotation and experiment with using a secondary focus target, but I won't pretend that'll be close to the ease of other sab variants. I consider this counterbalanced by the ST strength and Lethal Poison application.

    Now, if any of the rest of you happen to be data-driven nerds, I do have a cross-comparison sheet from different rotations:

    Sab/Sin 2013 (Now With Maths)-sabaecompare.jpg

  2. #2
    Soulwalker Zarielle's Avatar
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    great! been hoping for some new write ups on sab Thanks for sharing. I look forward to playing with it later today.
    Rianeth (Rogue), Riawyn (Mage), Riawen (Cleric) @ Faeblight
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    Ascendant Fragasm's Avatar
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    Hooray for Stabateur! Glad to see this brought back, as I couldn't figure out how to get it to work.
    The only way that someone from Cluster 2 is actually as bad as you all say is if they started playing this game in 2.3 (Free to Play launch).

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    Shadowlander alltoreup21's Avatar
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    TY for posting the relevant maths!

    Quick question: How does this compare to 54 Sab/22 BD (assuming we have someone else applying Lethal/Mark)?

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    Ascendant bitnine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by alltoreup21 View Post
    TY for posting the relevant maths!

    Quick question: How does this compare to 54 Sab/22 BD (assuming we have someone else applying Lethal/Mark)?
    I haven't parsed that extensively, but using a slight variation of the common build (so as to include traps and 0 MM), I get around 19.5 or so ST, which is without the Lethal debuff up of course. The AoE parses I've seen tend to be around the 130k mark.

    Hm. Actually, whether BD/Sin is ahead or behind for AE probably depends on how the encounter length lines up with Blade Tempo. Decided to try a parse myself - attempt #2 at 4:33:

    Code:
    TYPE               DAMAGE      ENCDPS      AVERAGE    MINHIT  MAXHIT  HITS   CRIT%  
    All                37,568,656  137,614.12  4,147.57   915     33,731  9,058  36%    
    Caltrop Charge     9,547,588   34,972.85   8,345.79   6,485   13,254  1,144  35%    
    Spike Bomb         8,592,062   31,472.75   2,619.53   1,871   4,225   3,280  37%    
    High Explosives    5,630,933   20,626.13   3,371.82   915     5,651   1,670  37%    
    Chemical Bomb      2,119,871   7,765.10    1,358.89   1,094   2,235   1,560  35%    
    Time Bomb          2,069,777   7,581.60    9,582.30   5,877   16,240  216    37%    
    Shrapnel Bomb      1,842,132   6,747.74    10,011.59  7,604   15,655  184    45%    
    Annihilation Bomb  1,667,602   6,108.43    20,845.03  15,028  33,731  80     33%    
    Cloud Maker        1,610,514   5,899.32    5,368.38   3,128   8,985   300    40%    
    Booby Trap         1,464,921   5,366.01    11,444.70  8,935   20,133  128    29%    
    Fragmentation Bomb 1,140,240   4,176.70    10,180.71  7,833   13,854  112    41%    
    Splinter Bomb      926,400     3,393.41    7,720.00   6,018   13,417  120    30%    
    Embers Bomb        571,235     2,092.44    7,933.82   6,007   12,990  72     38%    
    Auto Attack        180,186     660.02      1,857.59   1,055   3,568   97     37%    
    Spotter's Order    102,487     375.41      1,331.00   1,331   1,331   77     0%     
    VotSW              52,275      191.48      3,485.00   3,182   3,820   15     0%     
    Detonate           50,433      184.74      16,811.00  14,021  18,206  3      0%
    That'll learn me to use parses for a baseline without double checking them myself. Kids today and their rock'em sock'em robots and overly bomb-heavy Sab rotations. Back in my day, we knew that Sab was predominantly a physical DoT class where bleed uptime is king.

    In any event, I'll amend my previous statement. Sab/Sin and Sab/BD using the same rotation have roughly equivalent DPS, though Sab/BD will pull ahead in fights where its Blade Tempo covers the AoE portions or more of the fight in general. Sab/Sin has a slight edge on straight ST, and it is one of the few specs (maybe the only) that isn't dragged down by its inclusion of Lethal.

    (This is a little preliminary. I suppose I'll go back and do some more parsing with Sab/BD as well now for comparisons and to test a few things.)
    Last edited by bitnine; 08-16-2013 at 06:30 PM.

  6. #6
    RIFT Guide Writer
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    When you say for example that Spike Bomb deals 40% of the damage of Spike Charge you are comparing the damage of 5 Spike Charges which is 5 gcds to the damage of one bomb or one gcd. For example average tick of 5 stacks of Spike Charge is 11212 and it ticks 12 times, that's 67272 damage or 13454 per charge. Compared to Chemical Bomb which is 1298 damage per tick and ticks 10 times for a total of 12980 damage. I'm just curious if this 5 vs 1 comparison is intended since it kind of confuses the rankings of which abilities are higher damage and which are lower than charges.

    Secondly in the build you have taken 3/3 in Poison Potency and only 4/5 in Cruel Vengeance. This is just wrong since you already have well over 100% of passive damage modifiers on your charges so you only get about 150 dps out of Poison Malice per point. On the other hand you don't have any active damage modifiers except Cruel Vengeance which modifies all of your damage so it gives you more than 350 dps per point. For aoe dps the difference is even bigger since the charges are proportionally less dps.

    I think you are also discounting the damage from the initial tick of HE. When you refresh it you either get 2 ticks at the same time which means Time Bomb damage would actually be either 9750+3344 or 9750+1672 depending on when it hits. If you compare that to Caltrop Charge which is 8362*6/5=10034 per gcd it makes Time Bomb a better use of gcd and I don't see the point in trying to minimize Time Bomb use. Similarly even a randomly timed Embers Bomb or Splinter Bombs is just about equal damage as a single application of Caltrop Charge because of the increased HE damage.

  7. #7
    Telaran
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    Can you please share your macros bitnine? Thanks for this build!

  8. #8
    Shadowlander alltoreup21's Avatar
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    Pretty sure these macros are far from ideal... Any critique would be appreciated. I'm also keeping everything bound separately to other hotkeys by themselves if they're needed asap and to watch cooldowns.

    Filler:
    #show Spike Bomb
    suppressmacrofailures
    cast Spike Bomb
    cast Time Bomb (should this be below Cloud?)
    cast Cloud Maker
    cast Splinter Bomb (assuming the debuff is covered, this should be moved below Chem correct?)
    cast @gtae Booby Trap
    cast @gtae Chemical Bomb
    cast Embers Bomb
    cast Caltrop Charge

    Finisher:
    #show Annihilation Bomb
    suppressmacrofailures
    cast Annihilation Bomb
    cast Fragmentation Bomb
    cast Detonate

    Carpet/Spike:
    #show Carpet Bombing
    suppressmacrofailures
    cast Carpet Bombing
    cast Spike Bomb

    Incrim:
    #show Incriminate
    suppressmacrofailures
    cast @focus Incriminate

    @gtae for debuffs:
    #show Choking Gas Bomb
    suppressmacrofailures
    cast @gtae Choking Gas Bomb
    (two more replacing Choking with Enfeebling Trap and Adhesive Bomb also)

  9. #9
    Shield of Telara Isadore's Avatar
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    All my macro's are almost the same, but my filler has anni and carpet combing as well. Small difference in the macro below as well for when I use an interrupt BD spec.


    Setup Thistle Stacks
    #show spike bomb
    suppressmacrofailures
    //cast blade tempo (for BD interrupt spec)
    cast spike bomb
    cast carpet bombing
    cast cloud maker
    cast shrapnel charge

    I have not been able to parse as high as Bitnine or Gery. I'm not sure how their gear/setup differs. I actually get the highest parses from 61 sab or 54/15/7. They are all pretty close though.
    Last edited by Isadore; 08-17-2013 at 01:23 PM.

  10. #10
    Ascendant bitnine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gery View Post
    When you say for example that Spike Bomb deals 40% of the damage of Spike Charge you are comparing the damage of 5 Spike Charges which is 5 gcds to the damage of one bomb or one gcd. For example average tick of 5 stacks of Spike Charge is 11212 and it ticks 12 times, that's 67272 damage or 13454 per charge. Compared to Chemical Bomb which is 1298 damage per tick and ticks 10 times for a total of 12980 damage. I'm just curious if this 5 vs 1 comparison is intended since it kind of confuses the rankings of which abilities are higher damage and which are lower than charges.
    I was using the charges more as a baseline for damage than a direct comparison. The better comparison between the two would looking at DPS changes given different intervals between stack detonations. You can safely assume that there's going to be some level of charge use, as there certainly aren't enough cooldowns to continue indefinitely.

    So for the most part, I looked for the 1-to-1 comparisons. The other bit highlights the relative weakness of charges to an AoE rotation more descriptively rather than quantitatively due to what you mentioned.

    I think you are also discounting the damage from the initial tick of HE. When you refresh it you either get 2 ticks at the same time which means Time Bomb damage would actually be either 9750+3344 or 9750+1672 depending on when it hits. If you compare that to Caltrop Charge which is 8362*6/5=10034 per gcd it makes Time Bomb a better use of gcd and I don't see the point in trying to minimize Time Bomb use. Similarly even a randomly timed Embers Bomb or Splinter Bombs is just about equal damage as a single application of Caltrop Charge because of the increased HE damage.
    Oop - Perhaps I was unclear about that. I minimize TB only for the ST rotation, that's why I mentioned watching for Spike Bomb/Time Bomb's cooldowns so you could use them off CD without lapsing Caltrop. Particularly when using Rapid Setup to reapply Caltrop you end up rather hungry for AoE attacks to space into GCDs, so you don't sideline (m)any of them. That's why TB is #5 up on that AE parse.

    In that first AE parse, there's an average of 4.3 Caltrop ticks per second due to consistent double ticks, and the average interval between Time Bomb is a bit under 10 seconds. Since I watch to prioritize Time Bomb, most of that delay is from when Time Bomb coming off CD coincides with Spike Bomb, Cloud Maker, or Bombing Run.

    Secondly in the build you have taken 3/3 in Poison Potency and only 4/5 in Cruel Vengeance. This is just wrong since you already have well over 100% of passive damage modifiers on your charges so you only get about 150 dps out of Poison Malice per point. On the other hand you don't have any active damage modifiers except Cruel Vengeance which modifies all of your damage so it gives you more than 350 dps per point. For aoe dps the difference is even bigger since the charges are proportionally less dps.
    Yeah, I was wondering about that one. I had done a set of tests which consistently favored the extra point into PP instead of CV, but upon closer inspection it would appear that there was some same-percentage (40%) crit RNG at play.

  11. #11
    Ascendant bitnine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vokevaps View Post
    Can you please share your macros bitnine? Thanks for this build!
    Well, I tend to go a little macro lite. Here's what I use:

    Filler:
    #show Chemical Bomb
    cast @gtae Chemical Bomb
    cast @gtae Booby Trap
    cast Splinter Bomb
    cast Embers Bomb

    Time Bomb:
    #show Time Bomb
    cast Cloud Maker
    cast Time Bomb

    Buffs:
    #show Rapid Setup
    cast Rapid Setup
    cast Carpet Bombing

    Finisher:
    #show Detonate
    cast Annihilation Bomb
    cast Fragmentation Bomb
    cast Detonate

    ...And that's pretty much it. (I do also have a generic incrim macro and focus last target.)

    For the most part, I just watch for cooldowns and use a Naga. I will take a look at simplifying things a little bit via macros when I get a chance, though.

    I have not been able to parse as high as Bitnine or Gery. I'm not sure how their gear/setup differs.
    All my parses have been in the dummy foundry with the test gear, max CQ, and effectively max PA. (Copy of my live char, so unless the dummy is a creature from a life rift, count that as max PA.) And the ST trinket, since I never bothered to rune the AE one and don't want to bother switching. No stones, food, or other buffs beyond poisons and Trap Extension.

  12. #12
    Prophet of Telara Fiskerton's Avatar
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    what's the reason for the last sin point in Poison Potency rather than Cruel Vengeance? does Poison Potency power charge bleeds?
    ~ | Fiskerton | Fiskermage | Fiskerheals | Fiskerbear | ~

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  13. #13
    Soulwalker Spinetapper's Avatar
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    Bitnine could you break down your AE and St rotations down a bit more for those of us that are newer to Sab and dont have a full understanding?

    If you could break it down to something simple that would be excellent IE:
    5x spell1
    Finish
    1x spell2
    etc

    I'm eager to learn this spec but I'm having trouble understanding the rotation, even with the aid of your macros.

    Thanks for the help and the spec.
    All those that have come before you have also failed in their quest to subdue me

  14. #14
    Rift Disciple Dierdre's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Isadore View Post


    Setup Thistle Stacks
    #show spike bomb
    suppressmacrofailures
    //cast blade tempo (for BD interrupt spec)
    cast spike bomb
    cast carpet bombing
    cast cloud maker
    cast shrapnel charge
    Does that mean that there will be 4 Spike bombs cast after one another? Do they somehow stack leading to increased damage?

  15. #15
    Ascendant Zazen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dierdre View Post
    Does that mean that there will be 4 Spike bombs cast after one another? Do they somehow stack leading to increased damage?
    Yes they stack even though there is no icon shown on the target's unit frame.
    Last edited by Zazen; 08-24-2013 at 09:59 AM.

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