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Thread: How much longer?

  1. #1
    Telaran
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    Default How much longer?

    How much longer do we have to put up with our top raid specs being sacrificed to the alter of "Flavor".

    1. Ranger. Top ST Ranged spec. You have to use a buggy pet that dies. (nevermind that the spec is reliant on a heavy dose of dots/debuffs and is utter crap at target change)
    2. Assassin Top St Melee spec. You have to be able to stay behind the boss and on one target for all or most of the fight or you may as well have used another spec.
    3. Marksman our only alternative for st dps suffers from the same "flavor crap" as the other 2 specs above in that we are forced to use a buggy pet that is easily killed for a fair portion of our dps.

    The overall problem is that these specs may parse well in the nice safe foundry but as soon as you bring them out into a real raid setting they start to fall flat on their face. Its not fair and its not fun. Almost surprised we aren't forced to give up a bag slot for a quiver and buy arrows to shoot for "flavor".

    *all thoughts and issues are only for pve only. Pvp should be a whole 2nd system with no overlap.*
    Last edited by Bladehawk; 08-15-2013 at 07:24 AM. Reason: added thought

  2. #2
    Ascendant Primalthirst's Avatar
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    Your missing Nightblade from the equation

    Ranger is your ranged ST
    Marksman is your inferior ranged ST with Utility
    Assassin is your melee ST
    Nightblade is your melee Hybrid
    Last edited by Primalthirst; 08-15-2013 at 07:27 AM.
    Nope.

  3. #3
    Telaran
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    Default re

    I didn't add in NB because for the most part its working as it should. (Unless its doing much less dps then other melee ST/AOE specs from other classes) Ive not had the chance to see how it stacks up since the update.

  4. #4
    Ascendant Rounded's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bladehawk View Post
    I didn't add in NB because for the most part its working as it should. (Unless its doing much less dps then other melee ST/AOE specs from other classes) Ive not had the chance to see how it stacks up since the update.
    It's doing less.

  5. #5
    Ascendant Primalthirst's Avatar
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    I must have misunderstood, you said all your top raid specs were suffering because of flavour and you didn't mention NB. So I corrected you and pointed out NB's role in the scheme of things.

    I don't see an issue with different specs having different niches, which is what you seem to be complaining about. The other souls have similar weaknesses:
    -Warlord has absolutely no disconnect and suffers when target swapping fairly heavily
    -Paragon has weak disconnect
    -Shaman loses DPS on disconnect and is very reliant on specific cooldown timings
    -Harbinger is a pain in the *** to play above 100-150ms and suffers on target swaps (not on cleave, great for cleave, on actual target swaps)
    -Warlock has no mobility
    -Necromancer has the same pet issues as Ranger, which really aren't common at all. The only fight I can think of is Kyzan.

    About the only viable specs in the game that don't have strong notable downsides are Nightblade, Riftblade, Inquisitor, Pyromancer and Tempest (although Tempest DPS could be considered a downside.) Everyone has a fallback option for when one of their other specs cannot be played.
    Nope.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bladehawk View Post
    How much longer do we have to put up with our top raid specs being sacrificed to the alter of "Flavor".

    1. Ranger. Top ST Ranged spec. You have to use a buggy pet that dies. (nevermind that the spec is reliant on a heavy dose of dots/debuffs and is utter crap at target change)
    2. Assassin Top St Melee spec. You have to be able to stay behind the boss and on one target for all or most of the fight or you may as well have used another spec.
    3. Marksman our only alternative for st dps suffers from the same "flavor crap" as the other 2 specs above in that we are forced to use a buggy pet that is easily killed for a fair portion of our dps.

    The overall problem is that these specs may parse well in the nice safe foundry but as soon as you bring them out into a real raid setting they start to fall flat on their face. Its not fair and its not fun. Almost surprised we aren't forced to give up a bag slot for a quiver and buy arrows to shoot for "flavor".

    *all thoughts and issues are only for pve only. Pvp should be a whole 2nd system with no overlap.*
    The ranger pet hardly bugs out at all these days
    The ranger pet is actually extremely resilient if not immune to most things that will kill a non-tank
    The ranger pet does require some minor management to keep it alive where it would die, e.g., Goloch Smash

    You only need Marksman if you need a purge.

    If someone cannot make the transition from dummy to raid and keep close to optimal dps that is a problem with the player. Most players can maintain a rotation while standing still with no mechanics to negotiate but a good raider can maintain it while dodging ground effects and following a moving target.

    Rogues have builds available to be effective on all current raid content.

    This is just another whiny I'm not very good post disingenuously tarted up as a rogue abilities problem.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Primalthirst View Post
    I must have misunderstood, you said all your top raid specs were suffering because of flavour and you didn't mention NB. So I corrected you and pointed out NB's role in the scheme of things.

    I don't see an issue with different specs having different niches, which is what you seem to be complaining about. The other souls have similar weaknesses:
    -Warlord has absolutely no disconnect and suffers when target swapping fairly heavily
    -Paragon has weak disconnect
    -Shaman loses DPS on disconnect and is very reliant on specific cooldown timings
    -Harbinger is a pain in the *** to play above 100-150ms and suffers on target swaps (not on cleave, great for cleave, on actual target swaps)
    -Warlock has no mobility
    -Necromancer has the same pet issues as Ranger, which really aren't common at all. The only fight I can think of is Kyzan.

    About the only viable specs in the game that don't have strong notable downsides are Nightblade, Riftblade, Inquisitor, Pyromancer and Tempest (although Tempest DPS could be considered a downside.) Everyone has a fallback option for when one of their other specs cannot be played.
    You can't really list being bad on target swaps and relying on cooldown timings for dps as notable downsides and then say that nightblade doesn't have any.

  8. #8
    Telaran
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    I don't see an issue with different specs having different niches
    ,

    I agree.

    which is what you seem to be complaining about. The other souls have similar weaknesses:
    No. And i disagree.

    -Warlord has absolutely no disconnect and suffers when target swapping fairly heavily
    Warlord? Sure you didnt mean some other spec?

    -Paragon has weak disconnect
    Great! So does assassin. Now all it needs is to have the requirement of being behind the boss. No reason the warriors should get to use their very best ST spec anytime they want while rogues can only use it when its possible to melee from behind the boss. So here in this case not only does the rogue need a higher skill level to compete but a large amount of fights its simply not possible to use it.

    -Shaman loses DPS on disconnect and is very reliant on specific cooldown timings
    Everyone loses dps on disconnects. And just like shaman NB is also reliant on cooldowns.
    Sounds pretty even to me as long as the dps potential is the same.

    -Harbinger is a pain in the *** to play above 100-150ms and suffers on target swaps (not on cleave, great for cleave, on actual target swaps)
    This spec is or is very close to their top ST spec. It also has as you just said great aoe. Compare that to Assassin the rogue top st spec. No aoe and has to be behind the boss.
    Not even remotely fair.

    -Warlock has no mobility
    Warlock is compared to Nb specs for rogue. Except they get to do it from ranged.

    -Necromancer has the same pet issues as Ranger, which really aren't common at all. The only fight I can think of is Kyzan.
    Really cant compare necro to ranger. Necro isnt supposed to be their TOP st spec.

    About the only viable specs in the game that don't have strong notable downsides are Nightblade, Riftblade, Inquisitor, Pyromancer and Tempest (although Tempest DPS could be considered a downside.) Everyone has a fallback option for when one of their other specs cannot be played
    Anyway my point is that all of the best rogue specs have MORE downside then the other classes for their top specs.

  9. #9
    Shadowlander
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    Default Is it just me?

    I read these post complaining and complaining about competitive dps and I just don't see the complaints. I find that most dps specs are pretty close across the board when played properly (proper gearing for the spec you use, proper rotation, proper use of cooldowns). When I see these post all I see is "I'm not top dps in my raid and its your fault TRION". Ever calling has multiple specs that provide more than adequate dps for all the content in rift. If someone in your raid is a K or 2 higher than you big deal get better figure some **** out. But that's how I see it, and I could be wrong (have been before).

  10. #10
    Telaran
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zazen View Post
    The ranger pet hardly bugs out at all these daysThe ranger pet hardly bugs out at all these days
    The ranger pet is actually extremely resilient if not immune to most things that will kill a non-tank
    The ranger pet does require some minor management to keep it alive where it would die, e.g., Goloch Smash

    You only need Marksman if you need a purge.

    If someone cannot make the transition from dummy to raid and keep close to optimal dps that is a problem with the player. Most players can maintain a rotation while standing still with no mechanics to negotiate but a good raider can maintain it while dodging ground effects and following a moving target.

    Rogues have builds available to be effective on all current raid content.

    This is just another whiny I'm not very good post disingenuously tarted up as a rogue abilities problem.
    All you do is prove my points for me. Mages and clerics don't need to deal with the same issues rogues do with their top ST specs.
    The ranger pet hardly bugs out at all these days
    The ranger pet is actually extremely resilient if not immune to most things that will kill a non-tank
    The ranger pet does require some minor management to keep it alive where it would die
    These may not be huge issues. But why should we have to contend with them at all when others dont?

    You only need Marksman if you need a purge
    And these times are really uncommon right? Why should we have to accept a VERY buggy mechanic thats also rather fragile.

    Rogues have builds available to be effective on all current raid content.
    Dosent mean nearly the same thing as "as good as any other class"

    This is just another whiny I'm not very good post disingenuously tarted up as a rogue abilities problem.
    This is just another reply where the author thinks he is the best thing since sliced bread.

  11. #11
    Ascendant Zazen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bladehawk View Post
    ...
    This is just another reply where the author thinks he is the best thing since sliced bread.
    No, you are just bad. The class will never seem fair to someone like you and you will always find a reason to complain.

  12. #12
    Telaran
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zazen View Post
    No, you are just bad. The class will never seem fair to someone like you and you will always find a reason to complain.
    Omg. I cant manage to have a reasoned discussion. I know! I'll just resort to personal attacks with no basis in fact or reason.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Primalthirst View Post
    I must have misunderstood, you said all your top raid specs were suffering because of flavour and you didn't mention NB. So I corrected you and pointed out NB's role in the scheme of things.

    I don't see an issue with different specs having different niches, which is what you seem to be complaining about. The other souls have similar weaknesses:
    -Warlord has absolutely no disconnect and suffers when target swapping fairly heavily
    -Paragon has weak disconnect
    -Shaman loses DPS on disconnect and is very reliant on specific cooldown timings
    -Harbinger is a pain in the *** to play above 100-150ms and suffers on target swaps (not on cleave, great for cleave, on actual target swaps)
    When you compare assassin,warlord,harb,shaman as the top melee specs. You see that sin,warlord have sucky cleave. That sin/warlord have sucky disconects (not sure on shm). And sin/warlord/harb(by you post) has sucky target swapping. Plus Sin suffers from positional requirements. So if you had access to all 4 top dps specs which 1,2 would you pick to play melee. I know sin wouldn't be be anywhere on that list.

    The devs can not continue to balance some souls for niches while allowing others to be multipurpose. The same reasoning people use for nb sin dps differences are the same ones for niche vs multi-purpose balance. This applies to range and melee.

    Trion' devs continue to bounce back and forth between two different balancing ideas. One idea is that all classes should have access to all roles equally. This leads to the current class in-balance when any class with 1 soul to handle a role becomes over powered because of all the utility/dps crammed into one package. The other balance idea they use is each soul needs to be balanced with other souls. That reasoning leads to a perceived inbalance because any class with 1 soul to handle a role will be missing utility or dps.

    Trion needs to either add souls so that each class has mulitple souls for each role, which would allow all classes to have niche specs. Or trion needs to stop trying to niche specs and just balance all souls the same. Since trion won't be adding any new range dps/ melee dps souls soon that means trion has to ignore intra-class balance and balance each soul the same rather than trying to force some into niches.

    Niche souls will have no place in rift until all classes use niche souls for each role. Otherwise class in-balance abounds with melee souls that can single target like assassins, have no positional requirements, cleave like a nb,and handle disconnects better than a nb as icing on the cake.

  14. #14
    Telaran
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zazen View Post
    The ranger pet hardly bugs out at all these days
    The ranger pet is actually extremely resilient if not immune to most things that will kill a non-tank
    The ranger pet does require some minor management to keep it alive where it would die, e.g., Goloch Smash

    You only need Marksman if you need a purge.

    If someone cannot make the transition from dummy to raid and keep close to optimal dps that is a problem with the player. Most players can maintain a rotation while standing still with no mechanics to negotiate but a good raider can maintain it while dodging ground effects and following a moving target.

    Rogues have builds available to be effective on all current raid content.

    This is just another whiny I'm not very good post disingenuously tarted up as a rogue abilities problem.
    Imo your post seems like a "I'm not very smart" post to me, because man, those mechanics limiting what I can do sure make me bad.

    Kyzan craps all over melee DPS. He's the poster child for needed something ranged on him. Ranger doesn't work because the DoT phase rip puts on the pet gets zero reduction and 3 shots it. You're now left with MM vs Pyro vs Inquis. You tell me who's low dog?

    Assassin needing to be behind the mob alone makes it far inferior to shaman and paragon in terms of fights we can optimally use it on. Really enough said there.

    Do you still think you're so smart? I sure don't.

  15. #15
    Ascendant Zazen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiggz View Post
    Imo your post seems like a "I'm not very smart" post to me, because man, those mechanics limiting what I can do sure make me bad.

    Kyzan craps all over melee DPS. He's the poster child for needed something ranged on him. Ranger doesn't work because the DoT phase rip puts on the pet gets zero reduction and 3 shots it. You're now left with MM vs Pyro vs Inquis. You tell me who's low dog?

    Assassin needing to be behind the mob alone makes it far inferior to shaman and paragon in terms of fights we can optimally use it on. Really enough said there.

    Do you still think you're so smart? I sure don't.
    I run NB/Sin on Kyzan and my dps is significantly higher than anyone playing marksman on it. There is absolutely no need for every rogue to be ranged. Again you are equating lack of player skill to faults in the class. We single tank Kyzan but even when we two tanked it, I could complete the fight as melee without dying. NB/Sin bring Lethal to the fight and you can maintain stacks of Fiery Spike on the boss when you switch to the Beacon.

    Really L2P before coming here to scream like a little girl.

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