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Thread: Sabo Redesign

  1. #1
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    Default Sabo Redesign

    1st off-Lets get this clear. I just want to throw some ideas around and maybe get our dev lead to like one of them. No OP stuff, just a different mechanic is really all it needs.

    Ok. First off we don't really have a good archtype for saboteur. Its actions are like its throwing little bombs at something, then he detonates them or throws a bomb and detonates the little bombs....not that inspiring.

    I realize we are not going to get any new animations.

    But heres the thing....anyone can be a saboteur its a profession more than a class. Ie a chef can saboteur a luncheon by putting spoiled products out to eat. A mechanic can saboteur a car by barely cutting the break lines.

    So in that line of reasoning. Lets make sabo more of a close in demo expert. Gets a little weird here in explaining, but heres what I am proposing.

    Remove the charge mechanic completely. Use combo points for charges.

    Give sab a basic melee attack, and a basic ranged attack.

    The charges are the finishers. (ideally the animation would be for in melee he slaps a bomb to your chest and flips back, at range he pulls out a trion versioned rocket launcher and nails you).
    However the charges are APPLIED as finishers. You have detonate to actual explode them. Max stack 5-10-15-20 I dunno. But the point is the basic premise of sab has always been backloaded damage. Here its suspended damage. Have each charge applied give the next charge a bonus to damage.
    1-
    2-5%
    3-10%
    4-15%
    5-20%
    The 5% was just arbitrary example, not a suggestion.

    Etc to whatever cap they decide is reasonable. Not my choice here. The thing is let sab be responsible for really massive burst damage or reasonable consistent damage. Because they can use any cp builder in this design they can choose to hybrid or sub out into whatever flavor they want.
    Leave the bombs alone pretty much. Those work fine. Would be nice if they could be used as finishers as well, even with the same mechanic.

    Basicly your able to do builder damage, but control when your finisher damage goes off.

    And I would change the soul bonus to +1% damage from charges / every X points in allows you to stack another charge on target(I would propose 4 so 15 would be the max at 61 points in) If the baseline was 5 charges I would then go every 6 points in.

    This controls hybridability. Want to really hybrid, your probably going to have 5-10 charges as a pool. Extreme sabo would net you 15 charges, hybrid much less.

    For example by going into MM you can get some good movement and CC stuff, mods to aoe damage, crit, but too deep and your pool is not going to be to deep. Deeper sab means more % damage to the next set of finishers. With 10 charges being a final 40% and 15 charges being a final 60% to that last charges damage.

    Also this mechanic makes waiting less tiresome since your at least able to do builder damage from sab or other souls in the meantime. However a simple 5 stack should be about equal to a normal finisher. Its not until you layer in the stacks does the percentages start making the charges really painful. By design, if you want constant damage just hit detonate after every 5 stack. If you really want to blow something up stack max then hit it.
    Sounds bad but you really do want utter control of how much these charges are going to do.

    Technical side-by removing the charge mechanic the soul becomes hybridable. Its flavor utterly depends on what its matched up with. Its suggested that a lot of the +% dmg to charges be higher in the tree. Swap some of them out with bomb abilities.

    Really guys, we need to come up with something better than current sab mechanics.

    If you got a better one post it, if you want to hash this one out lets do it. I personally think this makes sabo much more flexible and removes one of its biggest issues, not being able to really create any builds that synergies with it.

  2. #2
    Plane Walker Drynaut's Avatar
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    If you mean the finishers would apply charges as time bombs I could get on that.

    Like you have a basic builder, get 5 CP points, then use a finisher and it applies 5 charges that auto detonate after 3 seconds or w/e.

    Then maybe Rapid Setup could be changed to Rapid Detonation and make your next charge finisher detonate instantly and give you 5 CP so you can do a normal 5 charge finisher and do an instant rapid charge finisher right after for double finisher burst.

    Personally though I think Sab suffers from the same problem Stormcaller has, there's just too many friggin attacks that all do sort of the same thing, aoe dmg. Like it's just, attack, after new aoe attack, here's another aoe attack, and another just like Stormcaller. And there's not that much utility.

    I think Sab should be the Dominator of the Rogue Calling, give it some more Dominator esque sabotage abilities, some resource denial, knock backs, field control, anti-healer zerg buster stuff.

    Then some of these attacks could be replaced with some utilities like that and you don't have 50 attacks to rotate in every fight.

    All I know is the current Charge build up playstyle feels really unsatisfying personally, doing nothing for 5-6 seconds to do a chunk of decent dmg just feels bleh. They could probably scrap the single target stuff like the 2 ST charges and maybe the Detonate finisher and just make Frag Bomb the 0 cooldown main finisher. Then it will just be an aoe/support soul like Dom.

    Trap should be reworked slightly to have a much larger trigger radius and much larger effect radius, make them instant cast, longer cooldown of 30-45 seconds, and have like a 2-3 second arming time before they're active, then we could make use of more traps.

    Maybe redesign a few of them for instance :

    Barbed Trap would be Caltrops Trap and be an aoe slow field like Adhesive Bomb, but apply the bleed to people in the area when it goes off.

    Enfeebling Trap could be reworked into a temp pet spawning trap like snake trap, just to make it fun, instead of a pointless stun trap.

    Then make it so you can have up to 2-3 traps at a time and they share a cooldown of like 10 seconds, or they can't be placed too close to each other.

    Also Adhesive Bomb and Chemical Bomb should be merged into one IMO.

    Merge Splinter Bomb with Ember Bomb as well.

    If charges stay the same then there should be more ways through the talent tree to have more fluid combo point set up or something, like a way to apply 2 charges in a single GCD once in a while.
    Last edited by Drynaut; 08-02-2013 at 02:50 PM.

  3. #3
    Plane Walker Drynaut's Avatar
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    Oh and here's another idea, you could have 2 different detonates instead, then just have a Direct Damage Charge, and a DoT Charge, and the detonates control whether the charge is aoe or single target.

    Like Frag Bomb would be an aoe detonate finisher, with Detonate being the ST finisher.

    Or the other way around, you could have a single target and aoe based charge, then the finisher either makes it an upfront direct dmg burst, or a damage over time effect. You could cut down on the amount of charges that way.
    Last edited by Drynaut; 08-02-2013 at 02:55 PM.

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    Rift Disciple spweasel's Avatar
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    I could be misinterpreting what you (Solates) are getting at, but it sounds like you are taking Sab's backloaded damage issue and just moving it around a little instead of fixing it. While you would be adding some damage up-front, it sounds like you are also adding an extra phase to the DPS process (going from Charge Builder => Detonate to Builder => Charge Finisher => Detonate).

    Unfortunately, having Charges being Detonated every 3-4 Combo Cycles (or whatever) means that either the Charge damage is virtually irrelevant given the amount of buildup required, or the class is even more backloaded than currently since your damage spikes significantly after 20 seconds or so.

    Personally, I would suggest something more like this - instead of charges being applied to the target, they are given to you as a replacement for a regular Combo Point - i.e. Blast Charge would give you a Combo Point shaped like the Blast Charge icon. New CP would push out old if you get more than 5 and they would be consumed like normal CP for non-Sab Finishers.

    On top of that, combine Charges with Bombs into a single ability - Frag Bomb + Shrap Charge, Chem Bomb (revamped into a proper AoE DoT) + Caltrops Charge, etc. Basically, make charges into normal Builders that alter the behavior of the Finisher instead of not doing anything until exploded. Remove the CD on most of these Charge/Bombs and rebalance as needed, of course.

    Oh, and while we're at it, change A-Bomb into the class's proper AoE Finisher. Actually, 1-2 other Finishers with different effects could work, too. They'd be smallish and/or utility effects since they need to consider Charge damage, but things like the Embers Bomb debuff could easily be revamped as a Finisher.

    Edit to clarify: Charges would Detonate on any Sab Finisher, of course.

    This would do the following:
    1) Damage would be Standard Rogue instead of being spiky on the back-end, while still having that "create-a-Finisher" feel.
    2) Make target swapping less troublesome, since you wouldn't need to rebuild your Charges on every new target if you still had some left over.
    3) Do away with the 1-Button Spam Macro (since you would have no more "finishers" with CDs and fewer vanilla DPS CDs to macro together).
    4) Remove the "exploit" where you can use a Sab build to get to 5 CP whenever you want without aggroing the target.
    5) Give Sab more utility abilities, since they would need to replace all the consolidated/removed abilities with something to keep the tree from getting too bare.
    6) More hybrid-friendly. While you couldn't use Sab Finishers with non-Sab Builders without losing DPS, you would be able to use non-Sab Finishers with Sab Builders without losing anything (since Charge bonuses would be balanced as a part of Finisher damage rather than Builder damage).

    P.S. Since this is going to bug me, Imma put on my English Teacher hat for a minute. You cannot "Saboteur" something. It's a noun. A Saboteur "sabotages" a bridge, a cake, or your High School reunion.
    Last edited by spweasel; 08-02-2013 at 03:28 PM.

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    LoL. Ok corrected on verbage usage.

    The problem is sab damage isn't the issue. Sab damage is fine really.

    Its a combination of no damage builders + lack of any hybrid ability OR really subsoul ability that bothers sab.

    My proposal more than anything was a way around using charges and still getting that sab spike damage. However both of you had good ideas.

    I sort of like the idea of the sab using CP to create actual charges based on what you select to do with your 5 cp. However that brings up a problem with hoarding, so their would have to be a cap in place for how many you could keep. Think of them as solidified energy lattices or something. Animation would be an uplift hand and a coalescing of energy to an object.

    However using sab as our dominator has ALOT of merit. Never understood why we only had a mage CC soul. Those mechanics are already in place. The problem with that is, just like dom, you would have 3 bars worth of specific cc tools to use. A lot of players are put off by dom by the sheer complexity and amount of tools the class has. And that barring a few they all have "rules" for when and how to use them.

    For example "never use transference on a blue bar, rarely on a purple bar, and always on a yellow bar" if you use transference, follow it with mana drain instantly to energy starve said bar.
    or
    Never cast MB,TI without first using transmogrify or stun, and if your using the chloro int boost, a life spell. 20% sp, 25% int not to be taken lightly for such high cd spells.
    or
    Never be alone, but if you are the answer is squirrel, run the other way. IF said opponent is solo storm shackle them but then run away. Answer is always run away if your solo. In a group you can feel free to cause as much havoc as you want.

    Unless said opponent is a wanna be dom, then you let them cast all their stuff, deny it, and proceed to hurt them in dom ways until they die(long fight, don't recommend it unless your split personality is up).

    Also squirrel can be spell reflected, just saying.

    Anyways.

    So change sab to be our dominator soul, complete with high cd massive damage aoe's or change it into my version, which is essentially the same damage but more investment on a target means way more damage as a spike, or have them change charge into actual charge abilities that can be powered up, then used as we create combo points.

    Good ideas.

    For simplicity I would go with mine, easier to balance.
    Dominator version would be way fun.
    Power to charges also has a lot of merit in playstyle. A note here, we could actually use the basic charges as "power" for bombs and stuff in a lego sort of way.

    For example builder x5, 5cp, we burn 5 cp on spiked charge. spike charge is now active with our shrapnel bomb also active, because we have a spiked chargex1.
    In that version our bombs would take anywhere from 1-5, 1-5 charge based charges determined by type. For example you could have 5-25 charges in a shrapnel bomb, and it does damage likewise, with a % dmg increase for each one used to charge it. But on the fly, you could either use the 1 charge(x5) of spiked charge on an enemy, or use it to make 1 charge of shrapnel bomb.
    That way we get our basic single target, aoe target explosive charges(using non physical damage) and our single target and aoe target physical damage(with bleeds and dots). with their bomb variants.

    Leave some bombs as self evident though. Our cc bombs should take just one charges of anything to work, more charges = less cd time (because you already invested that time in getting the charges) and our carpet bombing would simply be us not consuming cp for X seconds(5-10s or something).

  6. #6
    Rift Disciple spweasel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Solates View Post
    LoL. Ok corrected on verbage usage.
    Sorry, I generally don't play grammar <German political party that existed from 1920-1945>, but that one bugged me for some reason.

    Yay censorship!

    The problem is sab damage isn't the issue. Sab damage is fine really.
    Damage is the issue. Not the amount of damage, but the damage-vs-time curve. When I said "Standard Rogue Damage", I was referring to the Builder x 5 => Finisher damage curve (possibly with some CDs thrown in) that every other Rogue Soul uses. Sab's curve more or less breaks down to Exhaust Cooldowns => Nothing happens for 5 seconds => Finisher, and that's one of the things my idea would address.

    lack of any hybrid ability OR really subsoul ability that bothers sab.
    Yes and no, really. The fact that both Charges and Detonate don't play well with other Souls is a bit of a problem, but most Souls aren't exactly designed to be optimal when played as a hybrid.

    I sort of like the idea of the sab using CP to create actual charges based on what you select to do with your 5 cp. However that brings up a problem with hoarding, so their would have to be a cap in place for how many you could keep.
    If that was directed at my idea, I believe I indicated that they were straight-up CP replacements (or more accurately specialty CP that would do nothing abnormal unless a Sab finisher was used), limited to 5 total between regular CP and Charges.

    However using sab as our dominator has ALOT of merit.
    Personally, I'd rather not have too much CC in the class (I'd rather leave the support functions mostly to MM, Bard, and Tact) and let Sab be straight-up AoE DPS.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by spweasel View Post
    Sorry, I generally don't play grammar <German political party that existed from 1920-1945>, but that one bugged me for some reason.

    Yay censorship!


    Damage is the issue. Not the amount of damage, but the damage-vs-time curve. When I said "Standard Rogue Damage", I was referring to the Builder x 5 => Finisher damage curve (possibly with some CDs thrown in) that every other Rogue Soul uses. Sab's curve more or less breaks down to Exhaust Cooldowns => Nothing happens for 5 seconds => Finisher, and that's one of the things my idea would address.

    Yes. and no. This only really matters in pvp, which of course we would like to be playable in. The damage curve is nonrelavent in pve except for meters, your essentially doing the same damage, but all at once every 5s instead of constantly. All of our ideas do away with the no damage builders and instead use a standard builders with CP management. Only difference is how we what we want to do with those. I personally think the backloaded damage is great in some instances, for example cleric healers in pvp. I backload 15 charges he should be dead or almost dead. The main difference is it took me 15s to get there, but if I did 3 finishers in the same time he would just heal through it. 3 finishers all at once + the % damage increase along the way should equal a really huge spike of damage.

    Sometimes its not the damage, its when its delivered. Like our builders would crit etc,but that's just constant damage, nothing special besides maybe applying a debuff as well.

    Reason I suggested this method is that in pvp we have a role, take out healers.

    In pve you can simply follow the normal builder finisher setup with a non gcd tool (detonate, or bomb rotation into the mix).

    Yes and no, really. The fact that both Charges and Detonate don't play well with other Souls is a bit of a problem, but most Souls aren't exactly designed to be optimal when played as a hybrid.

    True, but we have the option to. Rift was supposed to be about options.

    If that was directed at my idea, I believe I indicated that they were straight-up CP replacements (or more accurately specialty CP that would do nothing abnormal unless a Sab finisher was used), limited to 5 total between regular CP and Charges.

    Yeah....we need to get away with on target charges. Like the concept though.

    Personally, I'd rather not have too much CC in the class (I'd rather leave the support functions mostly to MM, Bard, and Tact) and let Sab be straight-up AoE DPS.
    I understand the feeling, but none of those souls actually do large scale cc. Sabo already has in place a lot of cool features, but its tied up in long cd bombs, limits on traps in play.

    And we could use a different theme. Dominators theme is that it doesn't kill you, YOU kill you.
    And its spot on pretty much. You can avoid almost all the doms abilities by know what triggers them.

    So we would need a different theme. Would love an area denial theme, like trip wires land mines that don't go away etc. And provide some visual clue that they are there. That way if your paying attention, no blow face off, if your mindlessly zerging around face gets blown off.

  8. #8
    Plane Walker Drynaut's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Solates View Post
    I understand the feeling, but none of those souls actually do large scale cc. Sabo already has in place a lot of cool features, but its tied up in long cd bombs, limits on traps in play.

    And we could use a different theme. Dominators theme is that it doesn't kill you, YOU kill you.
    And its spot on pretty much. You can avoid almost all the doms abilities by know what triggers them.

    So we would need a different theme. Would love an area denial theme, like trip wires land mines that don't go away etc. And provide some visual clue that they are there. That way if your paying attention, no blow face off, if your mindlessly zerging around face gets blown off.
    We can still share the same ROLE dominator plays, pooping out tons of aoe's to bust up a zerg, and making a healer's day hell with resource denial, area denial, and SOME CC. I don't want Sab to become a purely CC soul or anything, but it's a Saboteur not a Demolitionist, it should be sabotaging the enemy and ruining their day fits perfectly IMO.

    I mainly just dislike having 20 buttons to press that all do the same thing.

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    Thing is...the name implies that you will need to take some time to get things setup, then everything goes boom. Or a buncha people drop dead/sick. Or something gets stolen.

    I can see where they went with a charged system but the thing is the soul has this deadzone where nothing is happening and pretty much everything besides charges can go into one macro(not that its a bad thing but it does make it terribly boring).

    The reason I went with a combo builder that does damage is to mediate that, and even if its a lower damage builder at least we could have poisons and munitions going off. Or effect poisons and munitions, you know what I mean. SOMETHING happening between 5 stacks.

    And the whole concept of having a finisher sitting there on hold while you add more to it kinda fits the theme. I mean your a rift sab, you see a cleric, know that a 5 stack of sticky grenades isn't going to cut it, so you slap on more before detonating.

    And again, in pve it just streamlines it to being pretty much like a normal builders - finishers class, though I can see where having 20 stacks of charges on something for burst period would be likable.

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    Champion of Telara RivenDusk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Solates View Post
    1st off-Lets get this clear. I just want to throw some ideas around and maybe get our dev lead to like one of them. No OP stuff, just a different mechanic is really all it needs.

    Ok. First off we don't really have a good archtype for saboteur. Its actions are like its throwing little bombs at something, then he detonates them or throws a bomb and detonates the little bombs....not that inspiring.

    I realize we are not going to get any new animations.
    I really like your idea of a rocket launcher. I too would like to see Sabs get a ranged weapon that materializes specific to skills used, like how the flamethrower appears for Tact abilities.

    LIke have some sort of crossbow or magitech grenade launcher that gets pulled out whenever Sab is applying charges, and maybe have the crossbow/launcher shoot at the ground for mine and trap applications. - that way new animations don't need to be created, and honestly Trion could just modify the Tactician assets a little to dress up the Sab.

    But I'd like to keep the charges in there, but instead of having them do no damage, instead have their application do a delayed damage like Marrow Harvest for Defilers, but you could still have your trigger ability to have the damage go off immediately with bonuses that raise exponentially per charge stack.

    I'd also like to see a Chemical Dart ability that converts a mob's internal chemistry, so that when they die (if the condition still has duration on it) they turn into a poison gas cloud.
    Mobs that die with the effects of the poison on them spead the poison effects to nearby mobs. - The idea here being inter-class synergy between the Chemical Dart using Sab and Corpse-Explosion using Necromancers.

    Come have a look at Underlight Chamber (RP) Faeblight, my sprawling Wizard's Tower!

  11. #11
    RIFT Guide Writer Muspel's Avatar
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    Okay, so, I put together a Sab spec and played around with it for a bit.

    Some observations:
    • Aside from Rapid Setup, Saboteur has the longest time between finishers of any rogue spec other than Tactician, because it has no 2CP builders or oGCD builders, and doesn't get extra CPs after a finisher.
    • Related to the above: needing to spend six seconds to refresh bleeds is a huge pain.
    • The bombs are by far the most satisfying part of the rotation.

    I think the solution is actually fairly simple.
    • Make it so that Combined Arms affects both Annihilation Bomb and Fragmentation Bomb.
    • Make it so that Demolition Specialist instead reads: "After using Fragmentation Bomb or Annihilation Bomb, the next Charge ability applies 3 stacks and grants 3 combo points."
    • Retune the damage numbers as necessary.
    Last edited by Muspel; 08-04-2013 at 09:05 PM.

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    That is a good point Muspel.

    However if the soul didn't use its own unique system(charges on target) then we could beg borrow and steal from other souls to get to 5 stacks faster as well.

    That was the point of my idea.

    The others had varying points, but I do like just swapping out some talents in the soul itself to get up to 5 faster.

    Everyone has had some good ones, yours works within the talents themselves, which would probably get implemented faster, I will admit.

    It just needs a good workover to make it far less boring and way less macroable.

    Not Dom less macroable mind you, just not one freaking button = competitive.

    Cause dominator can't macro anything at all....its three rows of unique specific abilities.

    We don't want that, hell if it wasn't for the return for value, DOMS wouldn't want that.

    However the complication of dominator prevents everyone from using it, so that's a...darwinistic soul I would say. Those who can figure it out and use it properly get rewarded, those who can't perform badly in it. I wouldn't mind sabo being somewhat like that I guess, we really don't have a Darwin soul in rogues do we?

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    One other change that may or may not have been mentioned. I would suggest changing the damage done but various things and make up your mind...primarily physical or primarily nonphysical damage. MM is a good example of primary physical. There are SOME attacks that do air damage and the like but this is not the bulk of the dps so it still synergizes well both as a primary and as a secondary soul. Right now when it comes to synergizing Sabo is a red headed step child.

    I also like the idea of making each charge do damage as it strikes and just having the finisher do additional damage. I know some people like silent set up and the whole mechanic by "feel" and "cool factor" can not be allowed to hamstring a soul.
    Far better is it to dare mighty things, to win glorius triumphs, even though checkered by failure... than to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy nor suffer much, because they live in a gray twilight that knows not victory nor defeat.

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    I like Solates ideas.

    Perhaps throw in some healing charges and bombs and coincide a Sab soul rework with the rogue healing soul release? That could also make some interesting bard hybrid specs and possibly some durable solo specs.
    Sah Rogue

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    Rift Disciple Jerv's Avatar
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    I completely agree that the bombs are the most satisfying part of the rotation.

    One of the biggest problems with the rotation is the charges. While the delayed damage is nice when you have a chance to preapply charges, it also means that the specc is really bursty when the detonation finally arrives.
    If anything this burst is a problem, since it's really easy for it to get out of hand in pvp. And I fear the build has suffered due to that.

    While it would be a total rehaul of everything the class is, I'd like to see the bombs and detonate reworked as our builders, and the current charges reworked as finishers that give the current effect.
    This would of course require a lot of rebalancing to work, but it would take away a lot of the burst we currently get when detonating by using a bomb.
    It would also mean that the charges wouldn't disappear if your current target died.

    It would probably lose a lot of it's flavour as a soul though, since it would move the rotation more in the direction of our other souls. But changing charges so they do damage on application would also have a lot of the same effect.
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