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Thread: Tactician still a viable PvE spec post update

  1. #1
    Soulwalker
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    Default Tactician still a viable PvE spec post update

    I am new to the tactician and really enjoying it right now. Have been reading all of the changes to its DPS and am concerned this will become a support class rather than a DPS class.

    Once the update hits, is it still a viable spec for someone that plays a DPS role in PVE groups? Have been playing the Mage class, but debating on making the shift to Tactician, Tactman specifically.

    thanks for help.

  2. #2
    Ascendant Zazen's Avatar
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    It doesn't look like it will remain the top choice for AE dps.

  3. #3
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    If the nerf goes live then tactman will be about 15-20% behind other aoe specs in dps. It's not going to be viable.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gery View Post
    If the nerf goes live then tactman will be about 15-20% behind other aoe specs in dps. It's not going to be viable.
    And tact healing is probably going to be about 15-20% lower than bards.

    Guess it becomes a 5 pt soul then.

  5. #5
    RIFT Guide Writer Muspel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Solates View Post
    And tact healing is probably going to be about 15-20% lower than bards.

    Guess it becomes a 5 pt soul then.
    Even on live, Tactician can do extremely high heals-per second, much higher than a bard. I used to run it on Crucia in my old guild because we were short on clerics, and I'd usually end up far above the chloro and just below the warden. I'm sure that various changes since then has probably jostled that balance around quite a bit, but it should still be able to mop the floor with Bard in the right circumstances.

    The problem with Tactician healing isn't the amount of output, it's the fact that it's extremely situational. You need the entire raid stacked in the same spot so that Curative Torrent's branching heal ticks a bajillion times-- if people are more spread out, it becomes dramatically weaker (and that's when Bard starts to pull ahead). That's one reason why I mentioned I'd like to see Curative Torrent be redesigned somehow, maybe turning it into a powerful raid healing cooldown like Downpour, then raising the healing on other abilities to compensate for the fact that it wouldn't be spammable.
    Last edited by Muspel; 07-30-2013 at 01:49 PM.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Muspel View Post
    Even on live, Tactician can do extremely high heals-per second, much higher than a bard. I used to run it on Crucia in my old guild because we were short on clerics, and I'd usually end up far above the chloro and just below the warden. I'm sure that various changes since then has probably jostled that balance around quite a bit, but it should still be able to mop the floor with Bard in the right circumstances.

    The problem with Tactician healing isn't the amount of output, it's the fact that it's extremely situational. You need the entire raid stacked in the same spot so that Curative Torrent's branching heal ticks a bajillion times-- if people are more spread out, it becomes dramatically weaker (and that's when Bard starts to pull ahead). That's one reason why I mentioned I'd like to see Curative Torrent be redesigned somehow, maybe turning it into a powerful raid healing cooldown like Downpour, then raising the healing on other abilities to compensate for the fact that it wouldn't be spammable.
    And when we get a pure healing soul?

    It then becomes what? Because both bard and tact have their healing talent improvement way up in their trees. So using tact as a secondary to get more healing is going to be out of the question. It will be physician/bard because at least you could do it with a 61 physician build I think.

    The new release of notes from dev are quite interesting, and I am actually going to wait awhile to see if he releases more before really commenting on it.

    I do think the above is still true, that if the torrent nerf goes into effect then its done as an aoe dps spec. Even with the more complicated rotation. But we actually need to test it out, ALL of it out(especially the stuff he hasn't released).

    --I guess you COULD go heals on it, if you already had one bard in the raid.
    Lord knows its not helping the raid to go tactician to do damage after these changes go into effect(GO MUSPEL!!!).
    Would free up some chloro to swap to their badass aoe spec and have some fun. Could be such a good healer than it would free up the clerics to swap into their dps roles as well.

  7. #7
    Telaran
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    In my mind, our support/healing lineup with Physician released and Tactician revamp finished would look something like:

    Physician = fully capable raid/5man healer with battle res and cleanse capabilities
    Tactician = Defiler-esque DPS with burst healing, maybe capability to do modest HPS with burst DPS?
    Bard = trickle raid heals + buffs and raid CDs

  8. #8
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    No...I don't see any burst coming out of a tactician build after this. It has okish ST dps, and yeah after the target is down to 30% can increase that some, its not a MM or rogue melee dps.

    Its only grace was its good aoe capability.

    Muspel is getting his dearest wish and that's getting nerfed. Apparently in ONE fight they can pull about 3% more dps than a mage. So he whined to the right people and got it reduced by 15-20% in the name of balance so people would finally listen to muspel and stop using the soul for, you know, its purpose, aoe DPS.

    They are however making the rotation more interesting, but why would you use an aoe that's 20% lower dps than everyone else. I could see a 3%-5% reduction, that would put us about equal, but no its about a 15-20% reduction which pretty much guts torrents. With no real way to increase the damage either, no procs on torrents.

    Sab was higher than it before the nerf, now it will be WAY below sabs numbers, and probably WELL behind mage aoe builds.

    So no...its going the way of a healbot now. No DPS fun for a tactician.

    And with these changes I am pretty sure its PVP career is over as well, which is another thing Muspel wanted so he gets to be all happy now that he has successfully caused one of our souls to be gutted and turned into a half-*** healing soul.

  9. #9
    RIFT Guide Writer Muspel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Solates View Post
    And when we get a pure healing soul?

    It then becomes what? Because both bard and tact have their healing talent improvement way up in their trees. So using tact as a secondary to get more healing is going to be out of the question. It will be physician/bard because at least you could do it with a 61 physician build I think.
    Tell you what: I will leak one small tidbit of information about Physician, and by "leak", I mean "restate what was already evident from the Physician abilities that ended up on Magelo". Currently, it is designed as a tank healing soul, not an AoE healing soul. It does have some AoE heals, but most of them only hit five allies and are primarily for use in dungeons, not raids, sort of like what Sentinel has to offer.

    You could even turn Tactician into a full-fledged AoE healer and it still wouldn't be competing with 61 Physician, although I don't think that'll happen, nor should it.
    Last edited by Muspel; 07-31-2013 at 05:08 AM.

  10. #10
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    Ok. So we have an aoe healing soul, 2nd edition.

    That works AWESOME on fights where everyone can stay nice and grouped up.

    That utterly SUCKS to be actually way below bard when they can't

    Good job. Can't say it enough muspel.

    Good job.

  11. #11
    RIFT Guide Writer Muspel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Solates View Post
    Ok. So we have an aoe healing soul, 2nd edition.

    That works AWESOME on fights where everyone can stay nice and grouped up.

    That utterly SUCKS to be actually way below bard when they can't

    Good job. Can't say it enough muspel.

    Good job.
    Go read the Tactician feedback thread.
    Last edited by Muspel; 07-31-2013 at 05:34 AM.

  12. #12
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    Muspel....I just have to finally come out and say it.... Could you at least be honest here...

    You should be saying...

    1. I do not like TAC.
    2. Under some circumstances it is better than other callings.
    3. This gives me the fig leaf I need to propose getting it needed to the point all other AoE souls beat it on AoE dps.
    4. To make it look balanced let's propose increasing the healing that is entirely situational and so will rarely if ever be called upon.
    5. Latest PTS notes = Mission accomplished.

    I remember you beotching about having to run TAC on Crucia way back when. In the other thread I suppose you slipped up when you noted you did not like TAC in the same post as it meaning it's existence meant there was no reason to play Sabo. This dynamic exists between every damn soul in the rogue tree. When we get into these pissing matches all we do is f-up even further where we stand vs the other callings.
    Far better is it to dare mighty things, to win glorius triumphs, even though checkered by failure... than to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy nor suffer much, because they live in a gray twilight that knows not victory nor defeat.

  13. #13
    Shadowlander
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    the tactician is support soul not a dps soul. bard is a support you don't see them dpsing and being in top so tactician should be like that too.

    It was never or should not be intended a support soul turning into damage dealer pulling numbers more than damage dealer soul
    Last edited by Sin2BeRogue; 07-31-2013 at 07:58 AM.

  14. #14
    RIFT Guide Writer Muspel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Galibier View Post
    This dynamic exists between every damn soul in the rogue tree.
    This seems to be the foundation of your argument, yes?

    What you're missing is that it's a dynamic that the souls are designed to resist. When Ranger and Bladedancer were useless, Ailion didn't shrug and say "let's just leave it as it is, they'll always compete so I may as well let there be a winner"-- he changed design so that each one ended up with situations where it gets used.

    Having a soul that overshadows another soul in every possible way is bad design, because it means that you have a build that some people like that never gets used. Having Tactician and Sab deal comparable AoE DPS means that Sab is overshadowed, because the mechanics of Tactician's AoE are dramatically superior to Sab's.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Muspel View Post
    This seems to be the foundation of your argument, yes?

    What you're missing is that it's a dynamic that the souls are designed to resist. When Ranger and Bladedancer were useless, Ailion didn't shrug and say "let's just leave it as it is, they'll always compete so I may as well let there be a winner"-- he changed design so that each one ended up with situations where it gets used.

    Having a soul that overshadows another soul in every possible way is bad design, because it means that you have a build that some people like that never gets used. Having Tactician and Sab deal comparable AoE DPS means that Sab is overshadowed, because the mechanics of Tactician's AoE are dramatically superior to Sab's.
    you have my like sir

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