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Thread: Tactician still a viable PvE spec post update

  1. #91
    RIFT Guide Writer Muspel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Galibier View Post
    You don't care about numbers only design. So your idea of Tac being better than sabo is not based on numbers, only on impressions and the subject like of one design over another? Do you realize what you said in the last half? You essentially said "what I say is not based on any objective data."
    You're really not reading at all, are you?

    I didn't say "I don't care about numbers", I said that I care about numbers less than I care about design. Which is why I don't spend time crunching numbers so that I can say "buff this ability by 8.95% instead of 10%". Numbers are important, and I do care about them, I just don't care enough to do it myself when I could be looking at concepts myself.

    If you're going to argue with me, take the time to read what I say. You seem to be skimming my posts and assuming you understood everything, rather than paying attention to the words I actually used.

    Quote Originally Posted by Galibier View Post
    Also the discussion of the 3.0 souls is not relevant at this point....all that is relevant is what we face now because for all we know with the changes being done now with a new CEO 3.0 may be completely changed. They just noted on the general forums specifically that we will see A LOT of changes based solely on the CEO swap.
    It was an example to illustrate my point. Namely, that Ailion's and Kervik's first order of business is not "Gotta get those numbers just right", it's "let's make sure that the soul is cohesive and fun".

    Right now, the issue with Sab and Tact is not one of numbers tuning, it's that they're fighting for the exact same spot, and it's pretty much impossible to balance them at it. If the numbers are equal, then Tact wins. If Tact is ahead, then Sab never gets used. And if Sab is ahead by enough to make up for the issues with its rotation, then Tact will never get used.

    So, there's a couple things that need to be done, in no particular order:
    • Tactician needs to have a different viable niche when Saboteur. It's easier to change Tactician than Sab, since Tactician already has a lot of utility and healing that could be buffed, and it's flagged as a support soul so it'd make sense if it could actually support.
    • Saboteur's rotation needs to be cleaned up. It's clunky.

    The problem I talked about before-- the fact that Tactician was a balance problem on encounters where it could cleave distant targets-- has been largely resolved with the torrent nerf. It may or may not have been a complete fix (time will tell), but it's certainly less of a problem now than it used to be.
    Last edited by Muspel; 08-16-2013 at 12:06 PM.

  2. #92
    Telaran Mammothtruk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Muspel View Post
    The problem I talked about before-- the fact that Tactician was a balance problem on encounters where it could cleave distant targets-- has been largely resolved with the torrent nerf. It may or may not have been a complete fix (time will tell), but it's certainly less of a problem now than it used to be.
    Yes the problem with the abilities it uses to do its AE damage being cone shaped and intended to be cone shaped was completely fixed by nerfing the damage of said cone shaped abilities....

  3. #93
    Ascendant Zazen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mammothtruk View Post
    Yes the problem with the abilities it uses to do its AE damage being cone shaped and intended to be cone shaped was completely fixed by nerfing the damage of said cone shaped abilities....
    Torrent are not nor ever were cone shaped in area of effect. They started out (bugged) as a 30m by 4m rectangle and were fixed to be the intended 30m by 8m rectangle.

  4. #94
    RIFT Guide Writer Muspel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mammothtruk View Post
    Yes the problem with the abilities it uses to do its AE damage being cone shaped and intended to be cone shaped was completely fixed by nerfing the damage of said cone shaped abilities....
    Something can do what it's supposed to do and still be too powerful. Mainly, I suspect that Ailion didn't really anticipate that people could use Marksman to raise the damage of channeled abilities so much. He was also probably surprised by the use of Curative Core to use torrents indefinitely-- without it, people would have needed to replace some torrents with bolts on sustained AoE, which is what I think Empyrean Engine was intended for.

    (Also, like Zazen said, they're not cone-shaped.)
    Last edited by Muspel; 08-16-2013 at 12:59 PM.

  5. #95
    Ascendant Hodor's Avatar
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    The new way tactician works is clunky.
    The engine change really needs to be reworked.
    Double tap double tap double tap double tap double tap...
    ahhhhhhhhh

  6. #96
    RIFT Guide Writer Nynja's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hodor View Post
    The new way tactician works is clunky.
    The engine change really needs to be reworked.
    Double tap double tap double tap double tap double tap...
    ahhhhhhhhh
    You can bypass this by only having the engines with empyrean bolt and the rays and start with 5 cp and 4 overloads..
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  7. #97
    RIFT Guide Writer Soulshield's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hodor View Post
    The new way tactician works is clunky.
    The engine change really needs to be reworked.
    Double tap double tap double tap double tap double tap...
    ahhhhhhhhh
    [notactive] is your friend for toggled abilities:

    [notactive] x Engine
    cast ...

  8. #98
    RIFT Guide Writer Muspel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soulshield View Post
    [notactive] is your friend for toggled abilities:

    [notactive] x Engine
    cast ...
    That doesn't help with his problem at all, you know.

  9. #99
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    Again. The problem wasn't a niche.

    Your looking at this as each soul in a vacuum. When if you played other classes, they don't really have that issue.

    Dominator vs Stormcaller doesn't happen. They don't say dominator is overshadowing stormcaller. They just make a dom/sc build that has the best of both, while not the best sustained you do get to do some sustained and every 30s and 2min you get to make up for it, while doing something in the meantime.

    If sab was hybridable, we would have made a tact sab build and went about our day and this would have never been an issue. Used torrents to slowly add charges and watch the fireworks. Or used sab to lay in vulnerability debuffs and used torrents to maximize our damage.

    I still say that saboteur not being a viable hybrid or subsoul is the main issue here.

    Nerfing tact was the easy way, no argument there.

    But no one likes using sab really. Its like you said clunky, and it simply doesn't hybrid. Besides the 10% dex, if you use sab you have to play sab, not the other soul. All of its tree abilities are specific to it because they created this ONE soul that doesn't work like the others.

    While I understand its more work, some of the ideas we presented actually weren't that much of changes. Plenty of people threw some good ones out there. And some things that make sense like being able to have more than one trap down, makes even more. Mostly its the charge mechanic that needs to be removed. Bomb and trap mechanics are fine. Its just 4 abilities, Most ideas leave you using detonate or a bomb still.

    Just saying.

  10. #100
    RIFT Guide Writer Soulshield's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Muspel View Post
    That doesn't help with his problem at all, you know.
    yeah thought he double taps his Engine and accidently toggling it off and not about double tapping a macro to just use one skill. Seems like he is not used to using offgcd skills in macros.

  11. #101
    Ascendant Galibier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Muspel View Post
    You're really not reading at all, are you?

    I didn't say "I don't care about numbers", I said that I care about numbers less than I care about design. Which is why I don't spend time crunching numbers so that I can say "buff this ability by 8.95% instead of 10%". Numbers are important, and I do care about them, I just don't care enough to do it myself when I could be looking at concepts myself.

    If you're going to argue with me, take the time to read what I say. You seem to be skimming my posts and assuming you understood everything, rather than paying attention to the words I actually used.


    It was an example to illustrate my point. Namely, that Ailion's and Kervik's first order of business is not "Gotta get those numbers just right", it's "let's make sure that the soul is cohesive and fun".

    Right now, the issue with Sab and Tact is not one of numbers tuning, it's that they're fighting for the exact same spot, and it's pretty much impossible to balance them at it. If the numbers are equal, then Tact wins. If Tact is ahead, then Sab never gets used. And if Sab is ahead by enough to make up for the issues with its rotation, then Tact will never get used.

    So, there's a couple things that need to be done, in no particular order:
    • Tactician needs to have a different viable niche when Saboteur. It's easier to change Tactician than Sab, since Tactician already has a lot of utility and healing that could be buffed, and it's flagged as a support soul so it'd make sense if it could actually support.
    • Saboteur's rotation needs to be cleaned up. It's clunky.

    The problem I talked about before-- the fact that Tactician was a balance problem on encounters where it could cleave distant targets-- has been largely resolved with the torrent nerf. It may or may not have been a complete fix (time will tell), but it's certainly less of a problem now than it used to be.
    For someone so concerned about good design you are trumpeting bad design, and from a logical point of view all of your responses are taking on the appearance of someone engaged in the creation of some serious bs rationalizations.

    Good design is having multiple souls performing the same function, simply with different flavors so the sneaky people, the in your face people, the ranged people etc all have something fun to play what they enjoy. At worst your niches should be a trade off...say slightly lower dps for some legitimately killer utility (think lethal poisons but on steroids. People who played EQ2 witll recall Swashbuckler and Brigand).

    Going for niches based on encounter design and the like (which is how most of these niches are working atm) is absolutely horrible design. Think GSB/RoS followed by HK where a butt ton of fights required melee range. ID is then kinda back to GSB/RoS. The encounter devs don't sit down and say "okay we need a NB fight, a Tac fight, a Sin fight...." Etc. They say "hey let's make some fun encounters." So creating niche builds based on this tiers raiding encounters WILL come back to bite you in the *** eventually.

    If Ailion is actually trying to create niche builds and not simply trapped by the mechanics sitting before him this game is pretty much doomed because the way you envision niche builds being designed will never work well in the long term due to the nature of game development. Add to this if they really don't give a damn about the numbers...then they are clueless. Any game with raiding has to be about the numbers, especially if you intend on every damn calling to be able to do the same things. If they aren't then a calling is going to be out in the cold. Those players will leave, especially a f2p, game because there is no sense of investment. Then the devs go crap themselves buff stupidly here Nerf stupidly there and a new calling is out in the cold....those players leave. In essence they cut their own throats.

    In short I hope you view of game design is your own twisted self serving BS view because if it is how Ailion and Kervik see game design...Rift has VERY short legs.
    Far better is it to dare mighty things, to win glorius triumphs, even though checkered by failure... than to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy nor suffer much, because they live in a gray twilight that knows not victory nor defeat.

  12. #102
    Ascendant Rounded's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soulshield View Post
    yeah thought he double taps his Engine and accidently toggling it off and not about double tapping a macro to just use one skill. Seems like he is not used to using offgcd skills in macros.
    It's still a **** mechanic, people who have learned to do 1 press per skill are going to take a long time to change their play style.

  13. #103
    Ascendant Hodor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soulshield View Post
    yeah thought he double taps his Engine and accidently toggling it off and not about double tapping a macro to just use one skill. Seems like he is not used to using offgcd skills in macros.
    think you guys misunderstood me. it's not that I don't know how to use notactive, I find the new engine mechanics highly annoying.

    not only that, it's made it extremely difficult to parse without completely starving in the golem foundary pts due to power costs associated with engine changes during rotation.

    I think on live in a raid with heal crits providing power and verse of joy it wouldn't be so bad. but it's annoying when you're trying to fine tune and can't get solid parses.

  14. #104
    RIFT Guide Writer Nynja's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hodor View Post
    think you guys misunderstood me. it's not that I don't know how to use notactive, I find the new engine mechanics highly annoying.

    not only that, it's made it extremely difficult to parse without completely starving in the golem foundary pts due to power costs associated with engine changes during rotation.

    I think on live in a raid with heal crits providing power and verse of joy it wouldn't be so bad. but it's annoying when you're trying to fine tune and can't get solid parses.
    i never had problems with this on pts...did you try my method?

    Again:

    5cp pre fight and 4 torrent clips prefight

    you start the rotation with torrent primer>empyrean bolt makro with anything not necrotic engine>4 or 5 times torrent> necrotic ray/empyrean ray with necrotic engine>empyrean bolt makro

    you can put infernal beam or any core in that emyprean bolt makro too

    this way you don't have that clunky playstyle
    Last edited by Nynja; 08-17-2013 at 05:43 AM.
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  15. #105
    RIFT Guide Writer Muspel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Galibier View Post
    For someone so concerned about good design you are trumpeting bad design, and from a logical point of view all of your responses are taking on the appearance of someone engaged in the creation of some serious bs rationalizations.

    Good design is having multiple souls performing the same function, simply with different flavors so the sneaky people, the in your face people, the ranged people etc all have something fun to play what they enjoy. At worst your niches should be a trade off...say slightly lower dps for some legitimately killer utility (think lethal poisons but on steroids. People who played EQ2 witll recall Swashbuckler and Brigand).

    Going for niches based on encounter design and the like (which is how most of these niches are working atm) is absolutely horrible design. Think GSB/RoS followed by HK where a butt ton of fights required melee range. ID is then kinda back to GSB/RoS. The encounter devs don't sit down and say "okay we need a NB fight, a Tac fight, a Sin fight...." Etc. They say "hey let's make some fun encounters." So creating niche builds based on this tiers raiding encounters WILL come back to bite you in the *** eventually.

    If Ailion is actually trying to create niche builds and not simply trapped by the mechanics sitting before him this game is pretty much doomed because the way you envision niche builds being designed will never work well in the long term due to the nature of game development. Add to this if they really don't give a damn about the numbers...then they are clueless. Any game with raiding has to be about the numbers, especially if you intend on every damn calling to be able to do the same things. If they aren't then a calling is going to be out in the cold. Those players will leave, especially a f2p, game because there is no sense of investment. Then the devs go crap themselves buff stupidly here Nerf stupidly there and a new calling is out in the cold....those players leave. In essence they cut their own throats.

    In short I hope you view of game design is your own twisted self serving BS view because if it is how Ailion and Kervik see game design...Rift has VERY short legs.
    When builds are designed without niches, what happens is that most of them never get used. This is a problem that's cropped in dozens of MMOs. Take WoW, for instance-- classes with more than one DPS spec meant that only one was worth using, usually whichever one did 1% more damage because it's hard to tune more tightly than that.

    Instead, what we have is a situation where diversity is strongly encouraged, and we have seven DPS builds that actually get used. This is vastly preferable to having everyone play nothing but Assassin and Ranger.

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