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Thread: I just don't get it...

  1. #106
    Telaran Mammothtruk's Avatar
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    Pile of rogues that think rogue is fine
    Rogue is in fact fine as it seems to be the base line after not getting much of any changes in a good few patches. It is in a good place doing decent in every aspect of the game. However your entire attitude to your fellow rogues concerns in every single thread that complains even a little about the rogue is not cause for some sort of uprising. Also just because you THINK someone is insulting a dev doesnt mean anyone else does or that the person did. try using honey instead of venom.

    Pile of rogues that think rogue isnt fine
    If when you say isnt fine you mean the other callings are above or below the rogues then yes you would be correct, just not looking at it right. Warriors and mages are being adjusted and now tweaked to get in line with expectation of the dev team. Clerics are being worked on right now and changes are already hitting the PTS for testing. Rogues might seem behind, but with the other three classes getting fixed from a broken state they are just overtuned a bit right now, and poor clerics are next in line to be fixed from broken. If when they get done with the other three callings we are still behind by 5-10% I am sure the dev team will identify and adjust the rogues dps.

  2. #107
    Ascendant Ajax1114's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Muspel View Post
    My point was this: in my old guild, minor class imbalances never kept us from a boss kill. It took much larger differences to cause issues like that-- like how broken rogues were on Matriarch, or the stupidly overpowered nature of Riftspear on Kain before the ability was flagged as AoE.

    The only remaining DPS imbalance that even approaches that level of magnitude is Tactman (even after the torrent clipping change, it still needs to be nerfed into the ground because of what it does to certain encounters such as Ultane and HM Gelidra), but since that's in favor of rogues, it's not relevant to the OP's claims of rogue inferiority.

    Most of the time, progression was hampered by players, not the class they chose to play. People made mistakes. Attendance issues would crop up. Somebody wouldn't quite have the right rotation. And so on. We raided on a more casual level-- and even though it was more relaxed, it had drawbacks.
    Is it this or isn't it?
    Quote Originally Posted by Ajax1114 View Post
    you're attempting to insinuate: Not-top-guild-progression = terrible players = no reason to complain about imbalances.
    Cause it really doesn't matter whether you were in a "more casual guild" at some point or not. You aren't denying the point that I laid out in black and white.

    Quote Originally Posted by Muspel View Post
    Blasting Ailion that he's biased because a rogue stole his lunch money is insulting. Period.
    Strawman and hyperbole much? Now you're really reaching out off the deep end. Why can't you just admit that this whole crusade of yours is motivated by anger instead of trying to play it off like you're some kindly teacher?

    Quote Originally Posted by Muspel View Post
    I never once said that rogues weren't behind. I said that we were in a good place-- which is true. The imbalances between the classes are all fairly minor (barring the exception I noted above), and certainly unworthy of this kind of QQ. Even the builds that are slightly subpar, like Saboteur, are still well-designed and engaging. It says a lot that people are saying "buff the soul's damage" rather than "redesign it from the ground up", which is what's happening to Champion, Warlord, and Druid.
    Split hairs more. The bottom line is, you were skirting around the point and now that I'm calling you on directly admitting it, you're moving the goal posts around.

    Quote Originally Posted by Muspel View Post
    Way to dodge the actual rebuttal.
    No substance to dodge. I'll put it plainly for you: You're missing the point. I can't rebut something that isn't even being argued.

    Quote Originally Posted by Muspel View Post
    Taking things personally is only an issue if it makes you unable to respond them in a cogent manner.
    And there's nothing cogent about your responses in this thread. Everything you say is colored with barely concealed rage.

    But since you're so into policing manners, how bout you give Mr. Zazen here a lesson since he seems to think that insulting people is fine. If you don't, it will just prove your hypocrisy:
    Quote Originally Posted by Zazen View Post
    You do know that Durango is in Addiction one of the leading guilds in the game. However his guild patronage is largely irrelevant, what is relevant, is his posting history on rogues both on the live forums and on the PTS forums.

    Also, you seem to have a hard0n for Gery, who is a knowledgeable rogue and has made many posts on the live and PTS forums.

    Where are your positive contributions to aiding, not just the cause of rogues, but the betterment of the game? They do not exist because you are devoid of ideas (I loved the just change a decimal point somewhere suggestion) and you're unable to even articulate a concrete problem. Again I refer back to your original post which was nothing more than a personal attack and nonsense attributing quantity of patch notes to class performance.

    Apart from Ajax who is either a fellow guildmember or is just sore because he has not cleared much content, no one is siding with you.

    I really do need to apologize when I called you mediocre. It was an insult to the many mediocre but more pleasant players in the game. You are a scrub. Nothing more.

  3. #108
    Telaran Tamuro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zazen View Post
    You do know that Durango is in Addiction one of the leading guilds in the game. However his guild patronage is largely irrelevant, what is relevant, is his posting history on rogues both on the live forums and on the PTS forums.

    Also, you seem to have a hard0n for Gery, who is a knowledgeable rogue and has made many posts on the live and PTS forums.

    Where are your positive contributions to aiding, not just the cause of rogues, but the betterment of the game? They do not exist because you are devoid of ideas (I loved the just change a decimal point somewhere suggestion) and you're unable to even articulate a concrete problem. Again I refer back to your original post which was nothing more than a personal attack and nonsense attributing quantity of patch notes to class performance.

    Apart from Ajax who is either a fellow guildmember or is just sore because he has not cleared much content, no one is siding with you.

    I really do need to apologize when I called you mediocre. It was an insult to the many mediocre but more pleasant players in the game. You are a scrub. Nothing more.
    Reported for the last paragraph. Everything you said before that was all based on rage. And I don't care what guild Durango is in. Do you idolize him like he's a million dollar athlete because he chose to be in a guild who's entire mission in Rift is to rush to contant and clear it before anyone else?

    I used Gery to prove a point that people here just want to argue with someone but don't have the guts to disagree with someone that is respected around here. And I proved my point. Gery gets away with saying something in a thread and not have to back it up but I can't. All i get out of you guys is....i sent my suggestions in private. For all you guys know, I could have sent in my purposed changes yestarday.

  4. #109
    RIFT Guide Writer Muspel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ajax1114 View Post
    Is it this or isn't it?

    Cause it really doesn't matter whether you were in a "more casual guild" at some point or not. You aren't denying the point that I laid out in black and white.
    It's a matter of degree. It's absolutely fine to point out any imbalance no matter what guild you're in. Complaining to the degree in the OP is only warranted in cases where it has a major impact on your gameplay (which generally means either raid progression or PvP, since those are the parts of the game where classes tend to compete).

    Thus, because the OP is in a situation where minor balance disparities barely affect him, he needs to take a deep breath and stop saying that devs are out to get rogues.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ajax1114 View Post
    Strawman and hyperbole much? Now you're really reaching out off the deep end. Why can't you just admit that this whole crusade of yours is motivated by anger instead of trying to play it off like you're some kindly teacher?
    This is neither strawman nor hyperbole. It's his actual argument. Here, read his own words, from the very first post in this thread:
    Quote Originally Posted by Tamuro View Post
    Question for the devs: Did you guys get your butts handed to you by Rogues in other games? And then you decided that when you got the chance to create your own game, you'd get your revenge by crapping on them ever chance you got?
    Quote Originally Posted by Ajax1114 View Post
    Split hairs more. The bottom line is, you were skirting around the point and now that I'm calling you on directly admitting it, you're moving the goal posts around.
    No, I'm not. You assumed I was arguing something I never said, and now you're apparently upset because you've been trying to debate a point that existed only in your mind.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ajax1114 View Post
    No substance to dodge. I'll put it plainly for you: You're missing the point. I can't rebut something that isn't even being argued.
    Really, now.

    So, tell me: how is asking Ailion if he got beat up by a rogue help to fix rogues? Or, rather, is it just there as an insulting aside?

    Meanwhile, I refuse to defend a point I never brought up or advanced.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ajax1114 View Post
    And there's nothing cogent about your responses in this thread. Everything you say is colored with barely concealed rage.
    You think this is rage? FYI, if I were mad, there would be a hell of a lot more italics in my posts.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ajax1114 View Post
    But since you're so into policing manners, how bout you give Mr. Zazen here a lesson since he seems to think that insulting people is fine. If you don't, it will just prove your hypocrisy:
    I think it's perfectly okay to attack people who are being impolite while advancing idiotic arguments. (Aside from the scrub comment, which was somewhat out of line. Personally, I try to insult the argument rather than the person making it.)
    Last edited by Muspel; 07-20-2013 at 03:22 PM.

  5. #110
    Telaran Tamuro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Muspel View Post
    It's a matter of degree. It's absolutely fine to point out any imbalance no matter what guild you're in. Complaining to the degree in the OP is only warranted in cases where it has a major impact on your gameplay (which generally means either raid progression or PvP, since those are the parts of the game where classes tend to compete).

    Thus, because the OP is in a situation where minor balance disparities barely affect him, he needs to take a deep breath and stop saying that devs are out to get rogues.



    This is neither strawman nor hyperbole. It's his actual argument. Here, read his own words, from the very first post in this thread:



    No, I'm not. You assumed I was arguing something I never said, and now you're apparently upset because you've been trying to debate a point that existed only in your mind.


    Really, now.

    So, tell me: how is asking Ailion if he got beat up by a rogue help to fix rogues? Or, rather, is it just there as an insulting aside?

    Meanwhile, I refuse to defend a point I never brought up or advanced.



    You think this is rage? FYI, if I were mad, there would be a hell of a lot more italics in my posts.


    I think it's perfectly okay to attack people who are being impolite while advancing idiotic arguments. (Aside from the scrub comment, which was somewhat out of line. Personally, I try to insult the argument rather than the person making it.)
    Holy moly Muspel. Are you still ranting on about my first post? You don't like how I expressed my frustration....WE GET IT ALREADY. lol Page after page after page of repeating yourself over and over and over. What more are you looking to accomplish here? Or do you want to continue on for 10 more pages on how you think I was belittling the devs and how it made you so upset? Why don't you post yet another analogy about how you think I disrespected them.

    Lot's of people have viewed this thread in a very short period of time, and I'd bet not all of them that have viewed it disagree with me. Just the people that like to see their name in lights.
    Last edited by Tamuro; 07-20-2013 at 03:34 PM.

  6. #111
    RIFT Guide Writer Nynja's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tamuro View Post

    Lot's of people have viewed this thread in a very short period of time, and I'd bet not all of them that have viewed it, disagree with me. Just the people that like to see their name in lights.
    In this case everybody should just open a thread and nobody should response to it xD
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  7. #112
    Ascendant Ajax1114's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Muspel View Post
    It's a matter of degree. It's absolutely fine to point out any imbalance no matter what guild you're in. Complaining to the degree in the OP is only warranted in cases where it has a major impact on your gameplay (which generally means either raid progression or PvP, since those are the parts of the game where classes tend to compete).
    My bad. I didn't know you were the almighty arbiter of what is warranted and not warranted when it comes to degrees of complaints.

    Quote Originally Posted by Muspel View Post
    Thus, because the OP is in a situation where minor balance disparities barely affect him, he needs to take a deep breath and stop saying that devs are out to get rogues.
    He posed a question, once, in the OP that sort of fits the insinuation that you're referring to. You've gone on for pages now about how rude it was. And he's the one who needs to take a deep breath?

    Quote Originally Posted by Muspel View Post
    This is neither strawman nor hyperbole. It's his actual argument. Here, read his own words, from the very first post in this thread:
    Quote Originally Posted by Muspel View Post
    Blasting Ailion that he's biased because a rogue stole his lunch money is insulting. Period.
    Right, cause it was all about the lunch money...

    Quote Originally Posted by Muspel View Post
    No, I'm not. You assumed I was arguing something I never said, and now you're apparently upset because you've been trying to debate a point that existed only in your mind.

    Really, now.

    So, tell me: how is asking Ailion if he got beat up by a rogue help to fix rogues? Or, rather, is it just there as an insulting aside?

    Meanwhile, I refuse to defend a point I never brought up or advanced.
    Ooh, denying it and turning it on me. Resorting to basic contradiction - you are getting desperate.

    Quote Originally Posted by Muspel View Post
    I think it's perfectly okay to attack people who are being impolite while advancing idiotic arguments. (Aside from the scrub comment, which was somewhat out of line. Personally, I try to insult the argument rather than the person making it.)
    So apparently, you believe that two wrongs make a right. I'm sure everyone is going to be on board with you there.

    Quote Originally Posted by Muspel View Post
    You think this is rage? FYI, if I were mad, there would be a hell of a lot more italics in my posts.
    Right...
    Quote Originally Posted by Muspel View Post
    it pisses me off when I see people that confuse mistakes with intent.

  8. #113
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    Let's compare the rogue specs on PTS to what would be their closest equivalents from other callings.

    Assassin: The max you can get out of this is around 23.5k in the test gear. Paragon and harbinger can both do about 25k. I don't have a recent warlord parse from PTS but on live warlord is even higher dps than paragon. Harbinger is practically a hybrid melee spec since it has phantom blades and suffers practically nothing from most disconnects. Paragon and assassin are more pure melee with around 50-55% ranged efficiency with the available ranged abilities. On top of that assassin is subject to a positional requirement which can severely hurt its dps and as a spec which relies on dots cannot switch targets very well. I am uncertain where shaman is situated on this now after it was buffed twice on pts. So we are looking at about 1.5k dps difference plus some mechanics inequality here.

    Marksman: parses around 20k, with extremely good rng can reach about 21k. If we compare to other high utility single target ranged specs the two that are the closest are pyro and inquisitor, but maybe we can add tempest there too. I see inquisitor parses as high as 23k and pyro can get at least the same. Tempest I am not sure about since not many tempest parses have been posted. Here we are looking at a 2k dps difference. For the record I don't think MM should be buffed to 23k, in my opinion inquisitor and pyro are the ones that are too high. But if all the previous guidelines of high mobility and utility specs being lower dps are now out then MM should be treated equally.

    Ranger: if instead of marksman we take ranger as the rogue's high dps ranged spec we have a smaller dps difference. Ranger parses around 22k, can maybe push it to 22.5k if you are lucky. That still leaves a dps deficit of 500 compared to pyro and inquisitor and you lose all utility for it. Or we can compare ranger to necromancer which is a mage pet soul with similar single target dps. The difference here is that necromancer has a 30% link and corpse explosion. Both of which are situationally extremely powerful while ranger has just about no utility or aoe.

    Nightblade, NB/Sin and bladedancer: this comes down to what you compare to. If the comparison is to harbinger then they are obviously lacking a lot. If it's to riftblade then it's a lot closer, maybe even balanced. However these are still melee specs and should at least be on par with high dps ranged specs but they are not quite there as they are generally parsing around 22k.

    There are also scaling differences to consider. PTS testing gear is low on crit power so specs with high crit chance are relatively lower dps than they are on live. Biggest loser in this is NB which parses well with the high AP gear but has no crit chance bonus and will fall badly because of it. Biggest gains are on inquisitor, paragon, warlord and shaman. MM is the rogue spec with best scaling. Assassin can get good scaling too but has to change subsouls to lower base dps to get it. So assassin will actually have to lose around 200 dps extra relative to paragon to get on the right crit power scaling and eventually reach higher dps than the 10MM/5NB spec which parses higher with PTS gear.

    So the bottom line is that we don't have a competitive single target melee dps spec or a competitive ranged dps spec and you can expect to maybe match inquisitor dps with assassin if you have zero disconnects. It's the worst balance since the bugged spec era of 2.1.

    The story here is that we were closing in on very nice overall balance and there were somewhat clear targets for what each type of spec should be able to do. Then some outliers emerged (pyro, paragon) and instead of them getting nerfed into the fold Kervik balanced the entire mage calling to that standard and now he is apparently doing the same to clerics. The result is that rogues who used to be the middle ground of single target dps with a wide range of balanced specs are suddenly behind across the board since we lacked those outliers and the dps goals have apparently moved higher.

  9. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mammothtruk View Post
    Rogue is in fact fine as it seems to be the base line after not getting much of any changes in a good few patches. It is in a good place doing decent in every aspect of the game. However your entire attitude to your fellow rogues concerns in every single thread that complains even a little about the rogue is not cause for some sort of uprising. Also just because you THINK someone is insulting a dev doesnt mean anyone else does or that the person did. try using honey instead of venom.



    If when you say isnt fine you mean the other callings are above or below the rogues then yes you would be correct, just not looking at it right. Warriors and mages are being adjusted and now tweaked to get in line with expectation of the dev team. Clerics are being worked on right now and changes are already hitting the PTS for testing. Rogues might seem behind, but with the other three classes getting fixed from a broken state they are just overtuned a bit right now, and poor clerics are next in line to be fixed from broken. If when they get done with the other three callings we are still behind by 5-10% I am sure the dev team will identify and adjust the rogues dps.
    i feel only sins could use a boost, mainly to from behinds as getting behind alot of things dont stay that way for long(from many of my puny experiences:P), most of the other trees seem fine, unless im missing mechanics here and there(mostly there)
    Last edited by Tenryuta; 07-20-2013 at 04:45 PM.

  10. #115
    Ascendant Zazen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tamuro View Post
    Reported for the last paragraph. Everything you said before that was all based on rage. And I don't care what guild Durango is in. Do you idolize him like he's a million dollar athlete because he chose to be in a guild who's entire mission in Rift is to rush to contant and clear it before anyone else?

    I used Gery to prove a point that people here just want to argue with someone but don't have the guts to disagree with someone that is respected around here. And I proved my point. Gery gets away with saying something in a thread and not have to back it up but I can't. All i get out of you guys is....i sent my suggestions in private. For all you guys know, I could have sent in my purposed changes yestarday.
    Be-still my quaking heart. If you had read what I posted, I said his guild patronage is irrelevant and what was important was the quality of his posts. The same applies to Moonfire, Muspel, Gery, Orangu, (Gyle and Mayi when they played) and quite a few other active rogues.

    The problem for me is that you're talking big which would be fine if you substantiated any of what your posted or were speaking from a position of strength where you had completed all content and were in a better position to comment.

    You cannot take either stance because they don't apply to you. You are just another scrub whining, which I could tolerate without comment if you did not levy attacks on people that are all about improvement of the game.

    Oh and just to up your report counter a bit - you're a scrub.
    Last edited by Zazen; 07-20-2013 at 05:47 PM.

  11. #116
    Telaran Tamuro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zazen View Post
    Be-still my quaking heart. If you had read what I posted, I said his guild patronage is irrelevant and what was important was the quality of his posts. The same applies to Moonfire, Muspel, Gery, Orangu, (Gyle and Mayi when they played) and quite a few other active rogues.

    The problem for me is that you're talking big which would be fine if you substantiated any of what your posted or were speaking from a position of strength where you had completed all content and were in a better position to comment.

    You cannot take either stance because they don't apply to you. You are just another scrub whining, which I could tolerate without comment if you did not levy attacks on people that are all about improvement of the game.

    Oh and just to up your report counter a bit - you're a scrub.
    A scrub that you avoided so you didn't look bad. What's that make you?

  12. #117
    Ascendant Ajax1114's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gery View Post
    Let's compare the rogue specs on PTS to what would be their closest equivalents from other callings.

    Assassin: The max you can get out of this is around 23.5k in the test gear. Paragon and harbinger can both do about 25k. I don't have a recent warlord parse from PTS but on live warlord is even higher dps than paragon. Harbinger is practically a hybrid melee spec since it has phantom blades and suffers practically nothing from most disconnects. Paragon and assassin are more pure melee with around 50-55% ranged efficiency with the available ranged abilities. On top of that assassin is subject to a positional requirement which can severely hurt its dps and as a spec which relies on dots cannot switch targets very well. I am uncertain where shaman is situated on this now after it was buffed twice on pts. So we are looking at about 1.5k dps difference plus some mechanics inequality here.

    Marksman: parses around 20k, with extremely good rng can reach about 21k. If we compare to other high utility single target ranged specs the two that are the closest are pyro and inquisitor, but maybe we can add tempest there too. I see inquisitor parses as high as 23k and pyro can get at least the same. Tempest I am not sure about since not many tempest parses have been posted. Here we are looking at a 2k dps difference. For the record I don't think MM should be buffed to 23k, in my opinion inquisitor and pyro are the ones that are too high. But if all the previous guidelines of high mobility and utility specs being lower dps are now out then MM should be treated equally.

    Ranger: if instead of marksman we take ranger as the rogue's high dps ranged spec we have a smaller dps difference. Ranger parses around 22k, can maybe push it to 22.5k if you are lucky. That still leaves a dps deficit of 500 compared to pyro and inquisitor and you lose all utility for it. Or we can compare ranger to necromancer which is a mage pet soul with similar single target dps. The difference here is that necromancer has a 30% link and corpse explosion. Both of which are situationally extremely powerful while ranger has just about no utility or aoe.

    Nightblade, NB/Sin and bladedancer: this comes down to what you compare to. If the comparison is to harbinger then they are obviously lacking a lot. If it's to riftblade then it's a lot closer, maybe even balanced. However these are still melee specs and should at least be on par with high dps ranged specs but they are not quite there as they are generally parsing around 22k.

    There are also scaling differences to consider. PTS testing gear is low on crit power so specs with high crit chance are relatively lower dps than they are on live. Biggest loser in this is NB which parses well with the high AP gear but has no crit chance bonus and will fall badly because of it. Biggest gains are on inquisitor, paragon, warlord and shaman. MM is the rogue spec with best scaling. Assassin can get good scaling too but has to change subsouls to lower base dps to get it. So assassin will actually have to lose around 200 dps extra relative to paragon to get on the right crit power scaling and eventually reach higher dps than the 10MM/5NB spec which parses higher with PTS gear.

    So the bottom line is that we don't have a competitive single target melee dps spec or a competitive ranged dps spec and you can expect to maybe match inquisitor dps with assassin if you have zero disconnects. It's the worst balance since the bugged spec era of 2.1.

    The story here is that we were closing in on very nice overall balance and there were somewhat clear targets for what each type of spec should be able to do. Then some outliers emerged (pyro, paragon) and instead of them getting nerfed into the fold Kervik balanced the entire mage calling to that standard and now he is apparently doing the same to clerics. The result is that rogues who used to be the middle ground of single target dps with a wide range of balanced specs are suddenly behind across the board since we lacked those outliers and the dps goals have apparently moved higher.
    Nice breakdown.

  13. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tamuro View Post
    I have not seen you ask Gery directly for "data" and "fact". You won't ask him because you, like Muspel are too cowardly to attack him because you'd be out of your league.
    Meh, I tend to ignore the euros. They tend to not bring anything to the party except complete trolling.

    And SUREEEEEEEEEEEEE you send you data and logical arguments directly to the dev responsible. What a copout answer if I ever heard one. You're only saying that because you can't prove that you do that.
    Its a lot better than whining on the forums without data or a logical argument and then whining when people call you out on it.

  14. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gery View Post
    Assassin: The max you can get out of this is around 23.5k in the test gear. Paragon and harbinger can both do about 25k. I don't have a recent warlord parse from PTS but on live warlord is even higher dps than paragon. Harbinger is practically a hybrid melee spec since it has phantom blades and suffers practically nothing from most disconnects. Paragon and assassin are more pure melee with around 50-55% ranged efficiency with the available ranged abilities. On top of that assassin is subject to a positional requirement which can severely hurt its dps and as a spec which relies on dots cannot switch targets very well. I am uncertain where shaman is situated on this now after it was buffed twice on pts. So we are looking at about 1.5k dps difference plus some mechanics inequality here.
    Hard/Para are much closer to 24.5(A lot of the Harb and NecroHarb parses are stopped right when EA ends which significantly inflates them). It is less than a 5% difference for a change that just went through, I would give them at least a week or two before complaining much about it.

    Marksman: parses around 20k, with extremely good rng can reach about 21k. If we compare to other high utility single target ranged specs the two that are the closest are pyro and inquisitor, but maybe we can add tempest there too. I see inquisitor parses as high as 23k and pyro can get at least the same. Tempest I am not sure about since not many tempest parses have been posted. Here we are looking at a 2k dps difference. For the record I don't think MM should be buffed to 23k, in my opinion inquisitor and pyro are the ones that are too high. But if all the previous guidelines of high mobility and utility specs being lower dps are now out then MM should be treated equally.
    Inquis just got buffed and pyro got a minor nerf, I would expect another minor nerf incoming for it as well as both are too close to melee specs.

    Ranger: if instead of marksman we take ranger as the rogue's high dps ranged spec we have a smaller dps difference. Ranger parses around 22k, can maybe push it to 22.5k if you are lucky. That still leaves a dps deficit of 500 compared to pyro and inquisitor and you lose all utility for it. Or we can compare ranger to necromancer which is a mage pet soul with similar single target dps. The difference here is that necromancer has a 30% link and corpse explosion. Both of which are situationally extremely powerful while ranger has just about no utility or aoe.
    Rgr is pretty good right where it is. The Necrolink just needs to die. It was a horrible idea to include it and its showing that. I wouldn't expect the link to last in anywhere close to its current state.

    Nightblade, NB/Sin and bladedancer: this comes down to what you compare to. If the comparison is to harbinger then they are obviously lacking a lot. If it's to riftblade then it's a lot closer, maybe even balanced. However these are still melee specs and should at least be on par with high dps ranged specs but they are not quite there as they are generally parsing around 22k.
    RB/NB/NB-Sin/BD are all basically right on top of RB both in AoE and ST damage. All these builds are roughly right where they should be. Harb AoE needs to be brought down a bit and NecroHarb AoE brought down even more.

    So the bottom line is that we don't have a competitive single target melee dps spec or a competitive ranged dps spec and you can expect to maybe match inquisitor dps with assassin if you have zero disconnects. It's the worst balance since the bugged spec era of 2.1.
    RNG from fight to fight is greater than the difference of the top 3 melee DPS specs.

  15. #120
    RIFT Guide Writer Muspel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tamuro View Post
    Holy moly Muspel. Are you still ranting on about my first post? You don't like how I expressed my frustration....WE GET IT ALREADY. lol Page after page after page of repeating yourself over and over and over. What more are you looking to accomplish here? Or do you want to continue on for 10 more pages on how you think I was belittling the devs and how it made you so upset? Why don't you post yet another analogy about how you think I disrespected them.
    Yes, I do want to continue, because feedback threads like this are one of the reasons that the devs don't post more often. I'll keep pounding at this point for as long as it takes for you to understand that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tamuro View Post
    Lot's of people have viewed this thread in a very short period of time, and I'd bet not all of them that have viewed it disagree with me. Just the people that like to see their name in lights.
    If people disagree with you, that doesn't make you wrong. If people agree with you, it doesn't make you right. I may be about to blow your mind, but the only thing that makes someone right is actually being right. At no point in your ramblings have you attained that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ajax1114 View Post
    My bad. I didn't know you were the almighty arbiter of what is warranted and not warranted when it comes to degrees of complaints.
    Yeah, if only I had providing the reasoning I use to distinguish it, rather than simply saying "because I said so".

    Oh, wait.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ajax1114 View Post
    He posed a question, once, in the OP that sort of fits the insinuation that you're referring to. You've gone on for pages now about how rude it was. And he's the one who needs to take a deep breath?
    Yes, how dare I continue to bring up a post that was made two whole days ago! That's, like, thousands of minutes. Who can possibly be bothered to remember something that long?

    In all seriousness, it doesn't "sort of fit", it fits it perfectly. Saying "you could do your job right but you're holding a grudge instead" is insulting. There is no other possible way to take that.

    I've gone on for pages because he's dead-set on defending it. If he realizes and admits that it was out of line, I'll drop it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ajax1114 View Post
    Right, cause it was all about the lunch money...
    I don't think you know what a figure of speech is. Getting beaten up and having your lunch money taken away are generally equivalent.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ajax1114 View Post
    Ooh, denying it and turning it on me. Resorting to basic contradiction - you are getting desperate.
    The burden of proof is on you. Go ahead and link a post where I said that rogues are not behind. (A current post, mind you. If you dig something up from months ago when balance was different, that obviously doesn't count.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Ajax1114 View Post
    So apparently, you believe that two wrongs make a right. I'm sure everyone is going to be on board with you there.
    I believe that words should be used when they apply. Calling Ailion biased or bad at his job is incorrect. On the other hand, it's completely accurate to call the OP's arguments immature and incorrect.

    It's the difference between attacking someone because they disagree with you (which is what the OP is doing) and attacking someone who is attacking someone else. If someone is able to present their points without resorting to insults, I won't insult them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ajax1114 View Post
    Right...
    That one was hyperbole. Although, to be fair, that doesn't always come across well in text, so it's understandable if you interpreted it that way.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gery View Post
    It's the worst balance since the bugged spec era of 2.1.
    Untrue. All of the differences that you posted are still very minor-- none of the top specs in their respective categories are more than 6% apart.

    It's true that rogues are behind across the board, but the actual gap is still small. Could it be better? Sure. Was buffing other specs up to Pyro/Paragon levels a bad idea? Probably.

    But is actual balance that far off? Not all.
    Last edited by Muspel; 07-20-2013 at 09:24 PM.

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