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Thread: Is bard in a no-mans land of sorts?

  1. #1
    Ascendant Galibier's Avatar
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    Default Is bard in a no-mans land of sorts?

    First a few qualifiers...

    Regarding 61 bard only

    Not saying Bard is not needed it is...

    To avoid wall of text this will be a 2 part OP.

    Part I the genesis of the idea....

    I used to not think this but as we go along I can't shake a growing sense of the following due to certain changes, especially the buffs to BM. BM sure needed some QOL changes but the straight up buffs it is getting are a tad over kill.

    The thing is this. Bard can heal...but not enough that a raid cares that the best player is Barding. They can do some dps, but largely the same issues. It is by many seen as the place you put that guy who can't seem to get it either via gear, rotations for dps etc. It is largely seen as a buff bot.

    Now because it can heal, even a little, people would cry if you increased it's dps. If you increased it's healing people would cry because it can do more than 5k dps. If it's buffs were not separate from Archon and BM there would be no place for the bard.

    I just wonder why the bard is not the same as every other role. You want the best guy tanking, or dpsing, or healing etc. When it comes to barding however it seems to be "okay we have the best rogues assigned to tanking and dpsing, who do we have left?" This to me is simply a wrong reason to have a role...

    to be Continued
    Far better is it to dare mighty things, to win glorius triumphs, even though checkered by failure... than to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy nor suffer much, because they live in a gray twilight that knows not victory nor defeat.

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    Ascendant Galibier's Avatar
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    Default Part II

    Now with the above belief in mind how about we change the soul a bit.

    It would involve the following changes...I would have suggested changing it to being healing centric BUT this would eliminate the point of much of what is in Tactician and I do not think it appropriate that rogue souls under cut each other.

    1. Changing cadence to an AoE version of Cadenza
    2. Elimination of Multiple Oscillations
    3. Changing Coda of Restoration from a heal to a raid wide 30 second Crit Power buff
    4. Changing Verse of Vitality to an AoE version of Verse of Agony.
    5. Elimination of Invigorated soul.
    6. Harmonic Distortion becomes an ability akin to virtuoso but allows spamming of Verse of agony and it's new AoE twin.

    Of course other things would need to be tweeked due to the turn from healing, I just think right now the fact it has SOME healing and SOME dps means that even as support it is a tad meh at either. I think this focusing of the soul on a single sub task, after support, would make the role of bard have the same respect in the general gaming population that the other roles, a rogue can perform, currently enjoy
    Far better is it to dare mighty things, to win glorius triumphs, even though checkered by failure... than to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy nor suffer much, because they live in a gray twilight that knows not victory nor defeat.

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    Ascendant Zazen's Avatar
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    Actually it's blatantly obvious when a good player bards as opposed to a less skilled player.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zazen View Post
    Actually it's blatantly obvious when a good player bards as opposed to a less skilled player.
    it is but 95% of what a bard brings can be done by a buff bot.

    Before fight starts cast 2 fanfares make sure run speed is up.
    Cast motifs
    Then once the fight starts cast jepoardy if its your job
    First time flaring power is called hit your cd macro 2times.
    then just spam candence or cadenza and a finisher so motifs dont drop
    and when cd comes back up hit it 2 times

    thats over 95% of what a bard brings to the raid and can be done by anybody not braindead.

    Yes a good bard will change there rotation around as circumstances demand and will time other cds like virtuoso or verse of occlusion at the right time however what the raid NEEDS the bard for is easily derped through.

    A good bard is noticible however a good bard vs a slacker doessn't change a raids outcome much at all. While the differeance between a good dps and a slacker dps is not only noticible but effects the raid more.

    As long as a bard doesnt die keeps up motifs 100% and keeps OotP/Voj on cd after flaring there job is done.
    Last edited by sancin; 05-31-2013 at 03:09 PM.

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    Ascendant Galibier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zazen View Post
    Actually it's blatantly obvious when a good player bards as opposed to a less skilled player.
    agreed but Sac in sums up my main issue with the build. An average player can keep the buffs up. Put a great player behind a bard and yes the difference is obvious but that does not make or break the raid. Making sure the best people tank, dps or heal can make or break the raid.

    the point of this idea is to make it so that the bard shares this same position of tangible value.
    Far better is it to dare mighty things, to win glorius triumphs, even though checkered by failure... than to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy nor suffer much, because they live in a gray twilight that knows not victory nor defeat.

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    Ascendant Zazen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sancin View Post
    it is but 95% of what a bard brings can be done by a buff bot.

    Before fight starts cast 2 fanfares make sure run speed is up.
    Cast motifs
    Then once the fight starts cast jepoardy if its your job
    First time flaring power is called hit your cd macro 2times.
    then just spam candence or cadenza and a finisher so motifs dont drop
    and when cd comes back up hit it 2 times

    thats over 95% of what a bard brings to the raid and can be done by anybody not braindead.

    Yes a good bard will change there rotation around as circumstances demand and will time other cds like virtuoso or verse of occlusion at the right time however what the raid NEEDS the bard for is easily derped through.

    A good bard is noticible however a good bard vs a slacker doessn't change a raids outcome much at all. While the differeance between a good dps and a slacker dps is not only noticible but effects the raid more.

    As long as a bard doesnt die keeps up motifs 100% and keeps OotP/Voj on cd after flaring there job is done.
    This entire post highlight exactly why you are not a good bard.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zazen View Post
    This entire post highlight exactly why you are not a good bard.
    so your saying somebody using that simple derp guide wouldnt be doing 95% of what a bard is needed for in a raid?
    Or are you just trying making a strawman rebuttal?
    Last edited by sancin; 05-31-2013 at 04:57 PM.

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    Ascendant Galibier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zazen View Post
    This entire post highlight exactly why you are not a good bard.
    You are simply being argumentative for arguments sake. yes Good bards are noticeable. That said even some guilds that have cleared all current raid content (baring perhaps all HM encounters) would say if you have a choice between putting your best rogue on dps or on bard, you put the best rogue on dps.

    The point of the change is to not make that such a clear decision. hell right now unless you really like bard (like I do) many people almost feel "punished" when asked to run the spec.
    Far better is it to dare mighty things, to win glorius triumphs, even though checkered by failure... than to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy nor suffer much, because they live in a gray twilight that knows not victory nor defeat.

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    RIFT Guide Writer TheGrinnz's Avatar
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    Bard is currently required and one of the most varied souls in the game. I'm not sure what more you want. It is certainly very noticeable when you have a good player doing it vs someone who just found the cadence key. The best DPS rogue is not necessarily the best bard. But a bad bard will lose you much more DPS than a bad DPS, either through buffs or through requiring more healing. It's up to the raid leadership to recognize if the role is being played effectively, and thinking of it as a "punishment" is your own fabrication.
    Last edited by TheGrinnz; 05-31-2013 at 06:18 PM.

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    Ascendant Zazen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sancin View Post
    so your saying somebody using that simple derp guide wouldnt be doing 95% of what a bard is needed for in a raid?
    Or are you just trying making a strawman rebuttal?
    If you think that's 95% of what a bard should be doing during a raid then you are ignoring other activities a good bard should be carrying out.

    What you have outlined is the absolute bare minimum to even qualify as a mediocre bard. I suggest you examine your skills more and think of applicable ways they could benefit your raid.
    Last edited by Zazen; 05-31-2013 at 06:28 PM.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Galibier View Post
    You are simply being argumentative for arguments sake. yes Good bards are noticeable. That said even some guilds that have cleared all current raid content (baring perhaps all HM encounters) would say if you have a choice between putting your best rogue on dps or on bard, you put the best rogue on dps.

    The point of the change is to not make that such a clear decision. hell right now unless you really like bard (like I do) many people almost feel "punished" when asked to run the spec.
    I am doing no such thing. I am all for improving the rogue, in fact the game in general, and I'm not saying I disagree with the premise of your post.

    I do, however, disagree with the assertions made by yourself and Sancin regarding the differences between a good and a mediocre bard.
    Last edited by Zazen; 05-31-2013 at 06:36 PM.

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    Ascendant Galibier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zazen View Post
    I am doing no such thing. I am all for improving the rogue, in fact the game in general, and I'm not saying I disagree with the premise of your post.

    I do, however, disagree with the assertions made by yourself and Sancin regarding the differences between a good and a mediocre bard.
    Okay I can see the difference there. Maybe the curt tone of your response turned me off. What you note is a point of fair debate.

    @Grinnz. Yes a Bard is needed. The thing is that a Bard is, tbh, only really "needed" because their buffs compliment rather than contradict an Archon or a BM. They are currently improving Beastmaster because of this fact to make it as viable as an Archon due to the QOL issues involved in the BM reliance on bleeds and melee. This "independence", if you want to call it that, means that Bard to an extent is being over looked in terms of what it brings to the raid beyond buffing.

    Hell if I remember right even you said it was not that BM was weaker than Archon that was the issue, it was the fact that it had a harder time doing it's job, yet the BM is getting straight up buffs rather than simple QOL changes. It seems the devs are saying "meh they needs motifs, anthems and fanfares, so they will still need bards, lets not worry about the fact that when it comes to their non-support abilities the soul is a confused disorganized mess and a half.

    No other role in the game has the "the raid leadership has to recognize" ******** that you note btw. My point is that just like tanking, hps and dps, the role of the bard should be recognized by the player populace in general. As for the "punishment" bit being my fabrication. If you have not been in a PUG for a weekly in the last 1.5 years where the raid lead looks at the raid force and said "bob has the worst gear. Bob you bard" it is you sir who is guilty of fabrication.
    Last edited by Galibier; 05-31-2013 at 07:20 PM.
    Far better is it to dare mighty things, to win glorius triumphs, even though checkered by failure... than to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy nor suffer much, because they live in a gray twilight that knows not victory nor defeat.

  13. #13
    RIFT Guide Writer TheGrinnz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Galibier View Post
    Okay I can see the difference there. Maybe the curt tone of your response turned me off. What you note is a point of fair debate.

    @Grinnz. Yes a Bard is needed. The thing is that a Bard is, tbh, only really "needed" because their buffs compliment rather than contradict an Archon or a BM. They are currently improving Beastmaster because of this fact to make it as viable as an Archon due to the QOL issues involved in the BM reliance on bleeds and melee. This "independence", if you want to call it that, means that Bard to an extent is being over looked in terms of what it brings to the raid beyond buffing.

    Hell if I remember right even you said it was not that BM was weaker than Archon that was the issue, it was the fact that it had a harder time doing it's job, yet the BM is getting straight up buffs rather than simple QOL changes. It seems the devs are saying "meh they needs motifs, anthems and fanfares, so they will still need bards, lets not worry about the fact that when it comes to their non-support abilities the soul is a confused disorganized mess and a half.

    No other role in the game has the "the raid leadership has to recognize" ******** that you note btw. My point is that just like tanking, hps and dps, the role of the bard should be recognized by the player populace in general. As for the "punishment" bit being my fabrication. If you have not been in a PUG for a weekly in the last 1.5 years where the raid lead looks at the raid force and said "bob has the worst gear. Bob you bard" it is you sir who is guilty of fabrication.
    I have no idea what you mean. The raid leadership similarly has to recognize who their effective Archons, Beastmasters, and healers are. No meter is going to give you an accurate picture in that regard. PuGs who simply assign the lowest DPS to bard even if that person is terrible at barding, is an example of doing it wrong.
    Last edited by TheGrinnz; 05-31-2013 at 07:45 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Galibier View Post
    @Grinnz. Yes a Bard is needed. The thing is that a Bard is, tbh, only really "needed" because their buffs compliment rather than contradict an Archon or a BM. They are currently improving Beastmaster because of this fact to make it as viable as an Archon due to the QOL issues involved in the BM reliance on bleeds and melee. This "independence", if you want to call it that, means that Bard to an extent is being over looked in terms of what it brings to the raid beyond buffing.
    Yes...because if it didn't compliment an Archon or a BM, it would not be needed.
    Bard is designed with the premise that an Archon OR a BM is present to compliment them.
    Same reason BM is designed to compliment either an Archon or Bard to provide the buffs and utility they provide.

    I fail to see how Bard is being over looked, given that i raid a Bard is needed and again, much like an Archon, someone who plays the spec well will show a good difference between a bad one.

    I have to agree, I simply cannot see any reason alter bards given it is in a really good spot right now.

  15. #15
    Ascendant Primalthirst's Avatar
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    We didn't have our regular Bard this week for Goloch. The guy replacing him is adequate and does pretty much what Sancin listed.

    All our DPS in raid were 3-4k DPS below where they should have been.
    Nope.

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