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Thread: Looking for Good Rogue Tanking Tips or Guide

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    Shadowlander
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    Default Looking for Good Rogue Tanking Tips or Guide

    I looked through the rogue guides section and there doesn't seem to be a current Rogue Tank Guide. Can anyone recommend the current best spec for Rogue tanking? Also, recommendations on gear and tips? Thanks.

  2. #2
    Ascendant Zazen's Avatar
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    Look harder. The guides aren't always in the top half dozen posts.

    http://forums.riftgame.com/rift-gene...rm-legion.html

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    RIFT Fan Site Operator Dunharrow's Avatar
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    Last edited by Dunharrow; 05-08-2013 at 10:07 AM.

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    RIFT Guide Writer Muspel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zissophiss View Post
    I looked through the rogue guides section and there doesn't seem to be a current Rogue Tank Guide. Can anyone recommend the current best spec for Rogue tanking? Also, recommendations on gear and tips? Thanks.
    Check the Riftstalker guide in my signature.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dunharrow View Post
    Fix your spec recommendations, please. 8tact/7Ranger is inferior to bard/ranger and bard/tact in every possible way. It's not "anti-attrition" like your guide says-- in fact, it has a lower TTL and requires more healing than the alternatives, and on top of that, it also has lower effective health.

    Also, you should probably go into more detail on the rotation. You make no mention of maintaining Planar Vortex, nor do you talk about Power of the Planes or Planar Splash.
    Last edited by Muspel; 05-08-2013 at 12:20 PM.

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    RIFT Fan Site Operator Dunharrow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Muspel View Post
    Fix your spec recommendations, please. 8tact/7Ranger is inferior to bard/ranger and bard/tact in every possible way. It's not "anti-attrition" like your guide says-- in fact, it has a lower TTL and requires more healing than the alternatives, and on top of that, it also has lower effective health.

    Also, you should probably go into more detail on the rotation. You make no mention of maintaining Planar Vortex, nor do you talk about Power of the Planes or Planar Splash.
    Thanks for reading. Never let it be said that I don't shout-out to my fans.
    Last edited by Dunharrow; 05-08-2013 at 02:09 PM.

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    RIFT Guide Writer TheGrinnz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dunharrow View Post
    Thanks for reading. Never let it be said that I don't shout-out to my fans.
    Ok Vioarr.

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    RIFT Guide Writer Muspel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dunharrow View Post
    Thanks for reading. Never let it be said that I don't shout-out to my fans.
    What a mature way to handle feedback.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Muspel View Post
    What a mature way to handle feedback.
    It's dunsparrow, what did you expect?
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    RIFT Fan Site Operator Dunharrow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Muspel View Post
    What a mature way to handle feedback.
    As opposed to you trying to start the same argument for the 5th time?

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    Rift Disciple Lorx's Avatar
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    On one hand, Muspel's guide here for rogue tanking, imo, is fantastic and one of the best ones I've read. Definitely worth a look.

    On the other hand, he does put waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too much stock in effective health in my opinion. Seems like every thread all I see is the spec being touted as the best thing since sliced bread. RNG/BRD is definitely the way to go if you want effective health, it just gives you the most, that's what it does. But frankly, effective health, while important, is not going to fail you if you have small amounts less. 4% difference based on spec choice is not going to be the deciding factor most of the time. New to a specific raid tier/dungeon? May be a good useful boost, if you just need to edge up a little more in ehealth to feel comfortable, but beyond that, a lot of what will make up how well you fare, is going to be off skill and gear. Gear's going to end up making far more of a difference than that miniscule amount of beef ever would, and how well you use the spec at hand is going to decide how effective you use your effective health. If you're an idiot that 4% will not save you, nor will a 20% shield from TAC/BD, or extra flat mitigation from TAC/RNG. If we look at the "Raid Rules" Dunsparrow set up on his linked guide for instance, how many of them are "Effective health durrrrr"? And how many of them focus on player skill?
    1. Know encounter
    2. Use movement wisely
    So, yeah.

    Health is a stat. If raids were just "I hit my stats against your stats, lets see who's stats are higher", then yeah, lets run the 4% ehealth spec and just knock shins. But it's not. Ehealth is a tool, something to consider in how you're going to tank. Spreading it around like it's the word of God Almighty that everybody must have the have highest ehealth at all times, when the differences statistically are minimal, is not "doing the most you can for your raid" or "being the best you can for your raid", that, is in your execution. It's a choice, whether you pass or fail will weigh much heavier on how well you put whatever spec and gear you use to work. Viable is not a synonym for "statistically best in this light", it's a term for what is good [i]enough[i/], what works.

    RNG/BRD is a great spec don't get me wrong, I mean, Ehealth is very useful, but slamming any other spec because it has basically unnoticeable differences in health health is a bit silly, especially in a game that markets itself as having a multitude of options for players to choose.
    Epic Gendo

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    Rift Disciple Lorx's Avatar
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    Dang, five minutes past, playing games while editing was not something I could multitask.

    A small addition;
    Even in Muspel's guide, sections 3.1 and 8 (Tips/Tricks, Final Words), cover the broader importance and challenge in tanking rather than stating "You obviously have the highest Ehealth by 4%, tank and win pls". The concepts of tanking being more than having slightly higher Ehealth isn't just something Dun apparently believes, it's something we can all admit to some point. Muspel sits on the concept in his final words for a moment that your spec should be tuned to your healers, listening to what they need and want from you. Meaning if 4% Ehealth really is the difference between needing 3 healers as opposed to 4, by all means, that should be your spec. If it sits at 3 healers either way, considering the options that TAC or BD bring, and deciding what fits you best, and what fits the encounters you hope to run next best, will matter far more than just saying Ehealth is the answer to all of your problems.

    Basically, there's one core concept here;

    VIABLE != ONLY ONE SPEC

    That should not be a hard concept, Viable is a pretty common word with a fairly simple definition. Why every tanking thread has to be a page argument of "Effective Health best, why would you even SUGGEST anything else? What a cruel thing to do!" is beyond me. I really hope the community here hasn't gone that far downhill since I last lurked it.

    Why can't we all just hold hands, sing songs, and just admit there's more possible tanking specs than just BRD/RNG?
    Epic Gendo

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    If we put the differences between 7 Bard/8 Ranger and 8 Tact/7 Ranger into numbers then the bard version has 4.7% more health and 4% more incoming healing. However the tactician version has 3.5-4% higher mitigation and gets a ~250 hp heal every time it gets hit. Curative Engine might seem insignificant and it is, but so are the other differences and it does make you live longer in an attrition fight.

    You are looking at about 1% difference in effective health or in other words about 650 heath. That is equivalent to 12 endurance with my gear.

    I haven't been tanking for a while now but if I was I would probably use the tact/ranger as my default spec for its superior aoe threat, especially ranged aoe which the bard build doesn't have at all. Bard build instantly jumps well ahead though if you are tanking a 10-man without a bard and there is no Fanfare of Vigor.

    13 tact/2 BD sacrifices both health and mitigation for the two cooldowns it gets. I wouldn't use that spec as a default but it can be situationally very good for example on a phase with lots of hard hitting adds but which doesn't last very long.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gery View Post
    You are looking at about 1% difference in effective health or in other words about 650 heath. That is equivalent to 12 endurance with my gear.
    Oops, I missed the rune on the item I was swapping to test, it's actually 26 endurance.

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    RIFT Fan Site Operator Dunharrow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gery View Post
    If we put the differences between 7 Bard/8 Ranger and 8 Tact/7 Ranger into numbers then the bard version has 4.7% more health and 4% more incoming healing. However the tactician version has 3.5-4% higher mitigation and gets a ~250 hp heal every time it gets hit. Curative Engine might seem insignificant and it is, but so are the other differences and it does make you live longer in an attrition fight.

    You are looking at about 1% difference in effective health or in other words about 650 heath. That is equivalent to 12 endurance with my gear.

    I haven't been tanking for a while now but if I was I would probably use the tact/ranger as my default spec for its superior aoe threat, especially ranged aoe which the bard build doesn't have at all. Bard build instantly jumps well ahead though if you are tanking a 10-man without a bard and there is no Fanfare of Vigor.

    13 tact/2 BD sacrifices both health and mitigation for the two cooldowns it gets. I wouldn't use that spec as a default but it can be situationally very good for example on a phase with lots of hard hitting adds but which doesn't last very long.
    Yes. There's no question in raids you would want to use Bard/Rng for max EH. In raids, EH is absolutely king because raid bosses hit hard.

    However, 5-man bosses do not hit hard and health ticks from Curative Engine are going to be more valuable than 4% increased incoming healing, especially with unreliable LFG healers that may or may not heal you, or might die themselves halfway through the fight. Tac/Rng is going to live the longest without heals.

    Plus you can use Necrotic Torrent to deal with mobs at range without risking dragging cleaving enemies through the group and such.
    Last edited by Dunharrow; 05-09-2013 at 05:33 AM.

  15. #15
    RIFT Guide Writer Muspel's Avatar
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    I've never claimed that other specs are incapable of tanking-- in fact, I've often said that the difference is very minor. If someone is just looking for a spec that's viable, they can put their points basically anywhere.

    That doesn't mean that the other specs are better. If someone asks which Marksman spec is best, and I say 61MM/15Sab, everyone would laugh. The difference wouldn't be huge, but it would still be worse in every way. Similarly, if someone asks me for a tank spec, I'm going to give them the best spec recommendation there is.

    Sure, gear and skill play a bigger role, but that has nothing to do with choosing a spec, because you can have gear, skill, and the right spec. It's like saying "you put too much importance on the right rotation, you need to make sure that you have a monitor for your computer so that you can see what's going on". It's not like you have to choose between being a skilled player and putting your talents in the right place. Even though a skilled player with the wrong spec will beat a bad player with the right spec, a skilled player with the right spec will do even better still.

    I focus on effective health when people are talking about specs, because the only interesting choice that you can make is TTL vs. EH vs. minor cooldowns. There is no talent that makes you 10% more skilled, or that helps you to gear up faster-- but using bard/ranger amplifies the effectiveness of all of your current tanking stats, which actually simulates a (slightly) higher gear level.

    @Gery: AoE threat is never a concern as a rogue tank. I have never had anyone except another tank pull aggro off of me on AoE (which is somewhat rare to begin with), and if Power of the Planes is fully stacked, even they can't manage it.
    Last edited by Muspel; 05-09-2013 at 05:38 AM.

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