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  Click here to go to the first Rift Team post in this thread.   Thread: NB improvement discussion

  1. #91
    RIFT Fan Site Operator Dunharrow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AceinHole View Post
    Fairly strong? It's absolute garbage. It is still good for dueling, but that's it. Take any NB/RS in the game and pit him against me in MM. Put us in 5 or 6 WF's and let's see who comes out on top for damage and KB's. Not to mention I will have a lot more utility with MM as well. The only good NB/RS's I see in WF's sit at spawn and look for 1v1's. Yeah it's very nice for that, but useless for anything else (especially, say, 5v5's).
    What's your point? Even if NB damage was buffed, it would not fare any better in PvP, because of all the reasons you listed. In PvP you need range and/or defense. If they buffed 61 NB damage, it would be like Assassin without vanish and crap stealth. The NB/RS hybrid would still be better and as you said, its not that good.

  2. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by desaroth View Post
    @Galiber

    Unless i am wrong isn't a hybrid supposed to be under a 61pt build. So to me the chances of 61 NB being buffed doesn't seem unreasonable. Forgive me if i'm wrong.
    You aren't wrong Des.
    The thing is that it is being compared to 61 Assassin which is much more limited compared to Nb/Sin which pulls compettive DPS and has decent AOE.

    So its in line with hybrids, not in line with 61 builds.
    On the other hand, this does lead me to beleive that there isn't communication between Aillion and Kervik.

    Rogue and Warrior melee builds both pull hgher ST than Mage and Shaman melee builds.
    Mage's compensate with Pyro, but Clerics are stuck healing at the moment unless its a fight that demands AOE such as Matriarch.

  3. #93
    Ascendant Mayi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Katosu View Post
    Rogue and Warrior melee builds both pull hgher ST than Mage and Shaman melee builds.
    Mage's compensate with Pyro, but Clerics are stuck healing at the moment unless its a fight that demands AOE such as Matriarch.
    I'd put shaman as just as high as NB-Sin. I believe they're about equalish, but someone mentioned before there was a 26k shaman parse, though I've never seen it myself. Either way Shaman is definitely higher then NB.

    Mage's melee build used to be decent, the issue is no aoe. However now that their ranged got buffed the harb-pyro is dead from what I've heard, so there's really no reason to play melee, ranged is just as high if not higher.
    Last edited by Mayi; 05-07-2013 at 09:01 PM.
    I rite a gooded guide for rouges.

    NB-Sin Guide - http://forums.riftgame.com/rift-gene...-sin-spec.html

  4. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dunharrow View Post
    What's your point? Even if NB damage was buffed, it would not fare any better in PvP, because of all the reasons you listed. In PvP you need range and/or defense. If they buffed 61 NB damage, it would be like Assassin without vanish and crap stealth. The NB/RS hybrid would still be better and as you said, its not that good.
    Yeah but they should give it some sort of decent ranged abilities or allow it to synergize better with other souls for said ability. My suggestion is to up the damage by 15-20% across the board and give it better ranged abilities. Right now we have Twilight Force and Flame Thrust. Neither can compete with Bro-spear or shock pulse. So, I say put a couple of new ranged abilities high in the tree so that if you want more damage you must commit a lot of points.. If you want more survival, you can't have the hard hitting ranged abilities but can still run the standard NB/RS.

    Oh, and while we're at it, nerf twilight force's snare. It is the only OP thing rogues have atm. If NB damage is given a buff and the soul is given better ranged abilities, I feel nerfing the snare is a fair trade-off.

  5. #95
    RIFT Fan Site Operator Dunharrow's Avatar
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    I wouldn't mind deep NB getting more ranged options.

  6. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mayi View Post
    I'd put shaman as just as high as NB-Sin. I believe they're about equalish, but someone mentioned before there was a 26k shaman parse, though I've never seen it myself. Either way Shaman is definitely higher then NB.
    Its nice that you would put Shaman as high as Nb/sin, but I have not seen any parses that would suggest it being equal to Nb/sin in single target.
    Last I saw, Shaman did a little bit more ST than Harbinger, with both Rogues and Warriors being clearly higher than the others.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mayi View Post
    Mage's melee build used to be decent, the issue is no aoe. However now that their ranged got buffed the harb-pyro is dead from what I've heard, so there's really no reason to play melee, ranged is just as high if not higher.
    Pyro lacks AOE capability as well, the issue is that when they reduced fireball damage, it reduces the damage of 61 Harb which uses fireball as one of its EG procs. It can compete with a Pyro, but Pyro has superior burst which is better for multi-phase esque bosses.

    Shaman is way better than Harb in terms of AOE though.


    @thiuss: RB is broken in terms of Charged pulse and bro spear IMO.
    Not sure how I feel about NB getting more ranged options. I personally would just like to see more melee specs that didn't have abilities beyond melee range. I am traditionalist I guess. *shot*

  7.   This is the last Rift Team post in this thread.   #97
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    Just added a couple of changes. It will be up on PTS shortly.

    Bladedancer: Blade Hustle: Now increases the damage of your next Quick Strike or Precision Strike by 5-15% per stack, up from 3-9% per stack. Now stacks up to 5 times, down from 10 times.

    Nightblade: Living Flame: Now also applies Fiery Spike onto affected enemies.

  8. #98
    Rift Chaser Kaliguwra's Avatar
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    Interesting changes.

  9. #99
    Rift Disciple desaroth's Avatar
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    thanks for that update Allion. I'm hoping that there might still be a few tweaks to help its ST dmg in the works. I'll keep my fingers crossed.

  10. #100
    Ascendant Violacea's Avatar
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    DPS buffs, really won't make much impact in the PvP world. Spamming Fiery spike on nearby targets isn't going to do much outside of fluff. >.<

    Very awesome to see updates though!
    Last edited by Violacea; 05-08-2013 at 05:50 PM.
    New round up of some high rank matches
    Chun-Li*E.Honda*Evil Ryu
    Abel*Ibuki*Dhalsim
    Gouken*Zangief*Ryu

  11. #101
    Ascendant Galibier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by desaroth View Post
    @Galiber

    Unless i am wrong isn't a hybrid supposed to be under a 61pt build. So to me the chances of 61 NB being buffed doesn't seem unreasonable. Forgive me if i'm wrong.
    61 builds are supposed to be viable and they are. They are smart enough to realize that there is NO way they can compensate for every hybrid people will come up with so they have a % limit and if a hybrid is below X%> 61 point build it is considered okay.

    That is NOT to say there are not some improvements that could be made to NB, just that "61 must be better than hybrid" is not really the rule. The rule is more "hybrid should not render 61 builds completely irrelevant." If you really like 61 NB it still does good dps, unless you are a hardcore min/maxer it is not like HK where it was 49NB or bust or Bloodstalker or bust (as apposed to pure sin).
    Far better is it to dare mighty things, to win glorius triumphs, even though checkered by failure... than to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy nor suffer much, because they live in a gray twilight that knows not victory nor defeat.

  12. #102
    Ascendant Galibier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Katosu View Post
    You aren't wrong Des.
    The thing is that it is being compared to 61 Assassin which is much more limited compared to Nb/Sin which pulls compettive DPS and has decent AOE.

    So its in line with hybrids, not in line with 61 builds.
    On the other hand, this does lead me to beleive that there isn't communication between Aillion and Kervik.

    Rogue and Warrior melee builds both pull hgher ST than Mage and Shaman melee builds.
    Mage's compensate with Pyro, but Clerics are stuck healing at the moment unless its a fight that demands AOE such as Matriarch.
    This is indeed an issue (assassin vs all rogue melee builds really) the thing is though that it is a weakness that I can't think of fixing beyond a serious redux of the Assassin build. If you made the ST dps high enough to compensate it would blow EVERYTHING else in the game away, because 61 Sin literally has zero AoE.

    I think the solution to Sin would be to give it even a basic AoE ability. Whether it be replace Blinding Powder, Foul Play, enduring brew or simply add an AoE into the tree in t4. Even if it didn't get an AoE finisher, having a builder of sufficient strength would work. It did for NB for the longest time.

    Some would say that this goes against being an assassin but I don't think so. Also when every other build in the Rogue tree, even Bard for goodness sakes, has some sort of AoE it seems to make sense.
    Last edited by Galibier; 05-08-2013 at 06:33 PM.
    Far better is it to dare mighty things, to win glorius triumphs, even though checkered by failure... than to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy nor suffer much, because they live in a gray twilight that knows not victory nor defeat.

  13. #103
    Rift Disciple desaroth's Avatar
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    @ galiber

    The truth is that nb/sin does make 61 NB unusable. A difference of 1kish dps is enough for anyone to not run 61 NB. I min/max as much as possible so i play the hybrid when i'm not playing pure 61 sin. That basically goes for everyone who plays melee. I don't know a single person that plays 61 NB so it is in essence obsolete due to the very similar play style of the hybrid.

  14. #104
    RIFT Guide Writer Muspel's Avatar
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    I think that the NB vs NB/Sin thing is not great for the game, but it's probably a low priority compared to the other things that Ailion could be working on. I'm not a fan of the hybrid spec, but it's somewhat similar to 61NB in playstyle, which means that every soul's playstyle is currently present in a viable spec.

    Aside from Saboteur.

  15. #105
    Ascendant Galibier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by desaroth View Post
    @ galiber

    The truth is that nb/sin does make 61 NB unusable. A difference of 1kish dps is enough for anyone to not run 61 NB. I min/max as much as possible so i play the hybrid when i'm not playing pure 61 sin. That basically goes for everyone who plays melee. I don't know a single person that plays 61 NB so it is in essence obsolete due to the very similar play style of the hybrid.
    Your mention of "I min/max as much as possibl" is part of the issue. People forget that the entire point of the game initially was around hybrids (teleporting sniper commercial anyone?) Due to the base design of he game there is no way for them to completely do away with hybrid specs unless they chose to redesign to "default" specs they provide and tune the game around them.

    The play style is almost identical, as Muspel said, and it is these differences that are what things are about. I think sometimes people get lost in the minutia about "61 this vs hybrid that" when really it should be how the soul feels when you are hitting the buttons, not what the button does that should matter the most. I mean seriously is the fact that you can't hit dark descent, even though the flow of the character is identical otherwise, really that vital?
    Far better is it to dare mighty things, to win glorius triumphs, even though checkered by failure... than to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy nor suffer much, because they live in a gray twilight that knows not victory nor defeat.

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