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  Click here to go to the first Rift Team post in this thread.   Thread: Saboteur Needs Some Love

  1. #1
    Ascendant
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    Default Saboteur Needs Some Love

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    I just wanted to get a conversation going discussing ideas on how Saboteur could be made competitive again with other AoE DPS. As of the moment, Tacman absolutely destroys Saboteur. As a test, I tried Sab on the stairway trash in ToDQ a few weeks ago (we pull all of it at once). I spiked with Carpet Bombing up to about 50-55K but then quickly fell to around 35-40K. The following week, I went Tacman for that same trash and stayed at a steady 65K DPS throughout.

    Now, granted, group composition, debuffs, etc may have an effect but these results line up with all my other experiences between the two specs as well.

    I'm okay with Saboteur being a bit behind Tacman given that Tac needs the mobs to be stacked tighter and, preferably, in a line of sorts, but I'd like it to be at least be competitive.

    How would you buff Saboteur? It makes me sad it's unusable as it's probably my favorite Rogue spec to play .
    Moved on from Rift due to: Rift's PvP being a mindless, skilless zerg that has been and will continue to be perpetuated and reinforced :: A horribly optimized engine :: My personal distaste for F2P (already heading down the P2W path) after giving it a fair shake. Rift is an exceptional MMO by an overachieving development team that unfortunately is ruined by a few personally show-stopping issues.

  2. #2
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    +1.

    Heck, +2.

    Sab was my first and favorite role of any class. It has three modes of attack: charges, traps, and bombs. They are different, but work together very well. Set traps, load charges, use bombs to set off the charges. Sab needs all 3 to work properly, so right now Sab is broken.

    I'd like to start by a couple problems that any redesign would need to address:
    1) Rogue was designed around having combo points on the target, and Saboteur Charges were designed to take full advantage of that by having all of the combo points' damage occur on the finisher. Now combo points stay with the Rogue, but the Saboteur's associated damage still stays with the target. So Sab is left behind from a design philosophy.

    2) Sab gets very little benefit from synergies with other roles.

    3) Sab still takes too long to get the benefit from their charges. It's essentially a 6-second cast time where you can move while casting.

    As for a proposed solution, I would propose the following:
    1) All bombs and AoE traps can set off charges
    2) All damage is from the finisher, not the charges. Charges modify the type of damage (spread to other people, ignore armor, etc).
    3) Fix Silent Setup. It needs to work in PvP, so that 3/3 silent setup means that the target should not have any notice they have charges loaded. And it should work while stealthed, without breaking stealth.

  3. #3
    RIFT Guide Writer
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    Most people are probably happy about not having to play saboteur after all the times we have had to. Planting charges and then detonating them for dots is just an inferior way to dps compared to mostly instant damage of tactician especially since we are talking about aoe where the targets often die very quickly.

  4. #4
    Telaran Meatbone's Avatar
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    Not having Sab makes me a sad panda
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  5. #5
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    I remember playing Sab for our World First kill of Laethys, and it was epic. (Also, was very satisfying on Maelforge for every phase in that fight.)

    Back in the dizay...the spec was complicated, and it took skill to play.

    Ever since they changed the way "Time Bomb" works it has fallen short of other specs. I loved the fact that if I managed "Time Bomb" between 2-3 targets while doing the maximized rotation the results were amazing.

  6. #6
    Rift Master Luteuel's Avatar
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    I recently played around with a couple of Sab builds, for nostalgia reasons.

    44sab/14mm/18sin

    44sab/32sin

    these were the 2 specs i toyed around with and of course not competitive after the initial burst of bomb then Carpet + bombs. I tried the 2nd spec on Matriarch and as expected felt lacking. I might try it on Gelidra just for fun.

    I did not min/max or work out any optimal rotation. I am sure you might be able to throw in impale with the 2nd spec like, do bombs, spike/caltrop x5, impale, spike/cal, detonate, back to bombs until chemical bomb comes up, etc..
    Rogue - <Ascendance>"
    Luteuel@Greybriar, formely Luteuel@Deepwood

  7. #7
    Ascendant Galibier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gery View Post
    Most people are probably happy about not having to play saboteur after all the times we have had to. Planting charges and then detonating them for dots is just an inferior way to dps compared to mostly instant damage of tactician especially since we are talking about aoe where the targets often die very quickly.
    Pretty much. For sab to be made competitive without being made OP the whole charge mechanic needs to be reevaluated. The roller coaster that soul has been on is in large part due to that and the fact that the soul can't figure out if it is physical or non-physical damage. Putting more of the dps into the bomb side helped but the charge mecganic is going to continue to hobble the soul imo.
    Far better is it to dare mighty things, to win glorius triumphs, even though checkered by failure... than to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy nor suffer much, because they live in a gray twilight that knows not victory nor defeat.

  8. #8
    RIFT Fan Site Operator Dunharrow's Avatar
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    I'd like to see them turn Saboteur into a Dominator-style soul. Give it tons of control and utility, some burst damage potential and lots of options, rather than just trying to balance its DPS against Tactician.

  9. #9
    Rift Disciple Lorx's Avatar
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    This is what I'm hoping to experiment more with in some 5mans and see what pops out. I generally tank, so rarely get the chance to parse it and see what comes out. Core of it is 51/23, since I saw I was one point away from Expose Weakness figured may as well jump for it. Might pull some points from other places in Sabo (time bomb, cloud maker, demo specialist, combined arms), and put them in advanced combat training, idk yet.
    Epic Gendo

  10. #10
    RIFT Guide Writer TheGrinnz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dunharrow View Post
    I'd like to see them turn Saboteur into a Dominator-style soul. Give it tons of control and utility, some burst damage potential and lots of options, rather than just trying to balance its DPS against Tactician.
    I dunno. I like its ability to do both high burst and high sustained damage. Tactician just doesn't have the burst. I think adding too much control would make it ridiculous in PvP again -- it still has a snare, silence and root. Maybe add a stun or AoE interrupt if anything.

    I'm using straight-up 61 sab. Immolating Trap and Molotov are pretty nice and the cooldowns aren't too bad on them.
    Last edited by TheGrinnz; 05-09-2013 at 02:21 PM.

  11. #11
    Rift Disciple Lorx's Avatar
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    I'm also very chill with Sab being very high burst and that kind of being how it's unique.

    Dun kind of makes sense, I don't know what Dominators really do, but to give Sab an interrupt/purge/some extra raid utility, that would certainly differentiate it from Tac. They already have the groundworks for that kind of utility in a way, with Gas bomb being an amazing silence, Incrim being, well, Incrim. Adding in that extra utility and making them the "mechanics support/DPS" in a way would be kind of interesting.

    Though really, Trion should bump around charges again. They managed to destroy the usefulness of Blast Charge...again. I mean, x5 Spike, Det, 2 bombs, repeat, is a fun enough rotation, but a B&B skill being useless is, well, sad. I mean, really all that would need to happen there is give Spike the skill to extend it to ~14s again. Gives just enough time for two full rotations and a couple bombs, making Blast useful, even if only as a time filler.
    Epic Gendo

  12. #12
    Ascendant Galibier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lorx View Post
    Though really, Trion should bump around charges again. They managed to destroy the usefulness of Blast Charge...again. I mean, x5 Spike, Det, 2 bombs, repeat, is a fun enough rotation, but a B&B skill being useless is, well, sad. I mean, really all that would need to happen there is give Spike the skill to extend it to ~14s again. Gives just enough time for two full rotations and a couple bombs, making Blast useful, even if only as a time filler.
    Well to be fair, blast charge is a ST attack and it is an AoE soul. Making changes to improve an ability that is going to be sub par seems a waste of time and effort. If we still had the old paradigm where Sab was expected to also be good-great ST damage I could see it but that boat has sailed.
    Far better is it to dare mighty things, to win glorius triumphs, even though checkered by failure... than to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy nor suffer much, because they live in a gray twilight that knows not victory nor defeat.

  13. #13
    Ascendant bitnine's Avatar
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    Were I to have a free hand with Sab, this is what I'd do:
    • Change the Gift-type bonus of Sab to add +0.75% damage and +0.5% AoE damage.
    • Change Booby Trap to have a DoT component, but still deal the same amount of damage.
    • Change Spike Bomb so that instead of dealing damage, moving within the effect applies a stacking DoT to a target at 1 per second, max 3 stacks.
    • Increase the damage on Shrapnel Bomb and slightly lower the damage of Annihilation Bomb. If you want to go nuts, have Shrapnel Bomb deal damage that increases with the number of DoTs on a target.
    • Change the Armor Fragmentation to instead have Blast/Shrapnel charge apply a Magnify Pain-style debuff to the target, increasing damage taken from the rogue for 10s.
    • Increase the damage and duration of Residual Shrapnel, such that it's an increase, but clipping is an issue.
    • Fix the somewhat self-destructive nature of Cloud Maker and other multi-hit AoEs triggering Mass Charged Shield and the like.
    • Increase the damage on Blast Charge. Still probably won't make it useful.
    • Remove the cast time on Traps. They aren't spammable in their current incarnation anyways.
    • Review the overall weapon enhancement proc rate of sab abilities and tweak them to be at least in the ballpark of other souls. Hell, or just add into Improved Chemical Bomb the ability for each tick of that ability to proc enhancements at a reduced %.
    • Make Rapid Setup off GCD. Okay, I'd just like this as a convenience feature.

    Move it more firmly to focus on being a physical DoT class, and raise the skill ceiling a little bit such that you're using different charge types a bit more to reach peak damage.

  14. #14
    RIFT Guide Writer TheGrinnz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lorx View Post
    I'm also very chill with Sab being very high burst and that kind of being how it's unique.

    Dun kind of makes sense, I don't know what Dominators really do, but to give Sab an interrupt/purge/some extra raid utility, that would certainly differentiate it from Tac. They already have the groundworks for that kind of utility in a way, with Gas bomb being an amazing silence, Incrim being, well, Incrim. Adding in that extra utility and making them the "mechanics support/DPS" in a way would be kind of interesting.

    Though really, Trion should bump around charges again. They managed to destroy the usefulness of Blast Charge...again. I mean, x5 Spike, Det, 2 bombs, repeat, is a fun enough rotation, but a B&B skill being useless is, well, sad. I mean, really all that would need to happen there is give Spike the skill to extend it to ~14s again. Gives just enough time for two full rotations and a couple bombs, making Blast useful, even if only as a time filler.
    The upfront-damage charges only exist for burst damage -- extremely useful for timing in PvP. They cannot be worthwhile in a drawn out fight except as a "time filler" as you mentioned, or the DoT charges become worthless. It's all a balance.

  15. #15
    Rift Disciple Lorx's Avatar
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    Very true Grinnz, it's just that right now because of the duration of the DoT charge, Blast has no worthwhile use, because you don't need the fill. Seems like the best rotation for those prolonged fights is along the lines of spike x5 / det / bomb x2, repeat, using Rapid Setup or Carpet Bombing on CD to boost DPS. Spike doesn't actually last long enough for other charges to be something to consider, since you really only need spike in those scenarios. It's not that it's necessarily bad, just seems like a missed opportunity for the soul to be making worth out of it's abilities. It's as you say, one charge will be the best DPS, that's just how it will roll, if using both in fights is something we want (again), then Spike's duration has to last long enough for Blast to be worth casting.

    And yeah traps having a cast time just never works out in PvE, Rapid Setup being on GCD is silly as well. We can hope at least.
    Last edited by Lorx; 05-10-2013 at 12:39 PM.
    Epic Gendo

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