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  Click here to go to the first Rift Team post in this thread.   Thread: MM changes on PTS

  1. #166
    Ascendant Hodor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Katosu View Post
    You aren't calling anyone out specifically, then you say foolishness at the end.
    I recall a time where people had this thing called tact.
    Of course with the internet, one does not have to worry about social standing.

    If you feel the original meaning is lost, then consolidate your argument and point out that the meaning was lost in the reply.
    It is not up to me on how you represent your opinion, I merely have to reply.
    Make it more concise.



    I'll test it again in a bit, but I was seeing a gain with it previously.

    @moonfire: Its not a conversation so moot point. Really, its a complaint about preference.
    1. Joke
    2. Please let us know your results. I will be re-testing too - which was the reason why I asked, to see if others got different results. Pulling 17k in Golem Foundary but I don't have a relic bow.

  2. #167
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dunharrow View Post
    In debate class in high school, yes. If you care about winning a debate outside of a classroom, no.
    In any scientific debate, every aspect of an argument is viewed and critiqued. There is no such thing as refuting a single aspect and thus, refuting the whole.
    Simply because aspects of an argument may still be well supported.


    Quote Originally Posted by Dunharrow View Post
    This. Although it does allow for stupid people to pick only the parts they feel they can answer, it is the only rational way of having a debate.
    Go read Katosu's post on the last page for an example of why the quote-reply-quote-reply format is absolutely stupid when quoting a single person's post.
    That is not true at all.
    There are many different ways of debating a subject.
    When it comes to debating things such as how visual imagery works, refutation of each aspect is a necessity.

    For example, parts of propositional theory is still used in regards to visual imagery even with support for spatial theory.
    So while Propositional theory is not as well supported, it explains aspects that spatial theory does not explain or cannot explain.

    Suggesting that refutation of individual points is high school debate worthy is woefully wrong and ignorant.

    Anyways, was testing DES over Hasted and I am seeng a gain. Its not a massive one but it is a gain.
    The problem is as AIllion said earlier, MM is very mobile as a spec.
    It no longer relies on pedestals and it can still deal most of its damage even on the move.
    It is hard to justify it doing much more ranged DPS when it has so much stuff in it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Soulsurfing View Post
    2. Please let us know your results. I will be re-testing too - which was the reason why I asked, to see if others got different results. Pulling 17k in Golem Foundary but I don't have a relic bow.
    I am using PTS gear since my Rogue is in full tank gear.
    One sec let me bust out ACT for a break down.
    Last edited by Katosu; 05-07-2013 at 07:34 AM.

  3. #168
    RIFT Guide Writer Muspel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dunharrow View Post
    In debate class in high school, yes. If you care about winning a debate outside of a classroom, no.
    Uh... what do you think high school debates are modeled after?

  4. #169
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    Quote Originally Posted by Katosu View Post
    .....
    Do you realize that players choose the rogue calling because it is mobile and promoted that way. Dps has nothing to do with the innate abilities promoted by the classes that give it individuality. It is like saying warriors shouldn't be the best tanks and clerics shouldn't be the best healers. Dps should be comparable and not used as a distinction at all.. they should take the variable out of the equation altogether. Of course they have failed more than a few times but it is because of the player base making them fail by all the QQ.

    All classes actually have gained a great deal of mobility and 35m as well which is far more a reason for a lower dps number than mobility. There is no reason for a class to be penalized or awarded in dps because the nature of the class and its individuality.Normalize dps and stop asking for it to be a distinction or justification for an argument. That was the plan from the start and if devs go back on their words then well they are just being Trion but as a player don't encourage them to do so. I don't usually blame the players when trion makes a bad decision but everyone does want to blame someone for it.
    Last edited by Flashmemory; 05-07-2013 at 10:24 AM.

  5. #170
    RIFT Guide Writer Muspel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flashmemory View Post
    It is like saying warriors shouldn't be the best tanks and clerics shouldn't be the best healers.
    I'm gonna stop you right there.
    Last edited by Muspel; 05-07-2013 at 10:26 AM.

  6. #171
    RIFT Fan Site Operator Dunharrow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Muspel View Post
    Uh... what do you think high school debates are modeled after?
    Modeled after Lincoln-Douglas debates in the 1800s. I was on the debate team for a semester in high school and competed in both LD and Team Policy. Its not a model that is followed today in any professional, political, or hobbyist venue.

    However, if it WAS followed, then one would be allowed to introduce multiple consecutive arguments at once because it clouds the issue and doesn't allow sufficient evidenciary support for the arguments.

    The quote-reply-quote-reply garbage happens in high school because kids don't know how to follow the rules of debate. It happens on forums because there are no fixed rules, and people think it makes them look smart to spend half an hour dissecting every sentence and utterance from their "opponent."

    Pro Tip: No one reads that drivel. Summarize their argument and then present your own and you'll win simply because more people will read what you have to say.
    Last edited by Dunharrow; 05-07-2013 at 10:55 AM.

  7. #172
    RIFT Guide Writer Muspel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dunharrow View Post
    Modeled after Lincoln-Douglas debates in the 1800s. I was on the debate team for a semester in high school and competed in both LD and Team Policy. Its not a model that is followed today in any professional, political, or hobbyist venue.

    However, if it WAS followed, then one would be allowed to introduce multiple consecutive arguments at once because it clouds the issue and doesn't allow sufficient evidenciary support for the arguments.

    The quote-reply-quote-reply garbage happens in high school because kids don't know how to follow the rules of debate.
    What do you think the Lincoln-Douglas debates were modeled after?

    I'll give you a hint: it starts with a c, and it ends with an "ourtroom arguments", where people generally need to refute or press each charge in turn.
    Last edited by Muspel; 05-07-2013 at 10:55 AM.

  8. #173
    RIFT Fan Site Operator Dunharrow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flashmemory View Post
    Do you realize that players choose the rogue calling because it is mobile and promoted that way.
    This is actually spot on and I think people have forgotten it. Remember the Rift "Build your class" calling videos that appeared just before the game launched?

    Warriors focused on Power.
    Rogues focused on Speed.
    Clerics focused on Protection.
    Mages focused on Control.

    These are the archetypes that got us into the game. In large part, they still hold true. Rogues are about Speed, Agility, Mobility.

    The more we try to see Rogues like we used to see them before we became obsessed with being Bow-Mages or Dagger-Warriors, the better off we'll be, and the more developers will be able to keep the Rogue identity intact.

  9. #174
    Rift Master Ymirson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dunharrow View Post
    Pro Tip: No one reads that drivel. Summarize their argument and then present your own and you'll win simply because more people will read what you have to say.
    I don't know about classroom debates, but this seems legit for the interwebs.
    Also, making those ridiculous quote-answer-quote-answer posts completely derail any read flow. If the reader can't memorize what your opponent did say, he made a bad point, impression and post and you should not repeat it.
    A witty saying proves nothing
    - Voltaire
    One man alone can be pretty dumb sometimes, but for real bona fide stupidity, there ain't nothin' can beat teamwork.
    - Edward Abbey

  10. #175
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dunharrow View Post
    snipped for spce
    Except that they do not hold true.
    At several different points it was Mages that had the highest burst, highest healing ability, and has had several time periods including this one, where they had agility capable of rivaling Rogues.

    I'd say the only thing that you stated that is most true so far is that Mages have the most control options due to Dominator.

    The ideas that were originally presented in the past during RIFT's early conception are not absolute truths, and we have seen the game change as the community has demanded primarily because of the issues such early ideas presented.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dunharrow View Post
    The more we try to see Rogues like we used to see them before we became obsessed with being Bow-Mages or Dagger-Warriors, the better off we'll be, and the more developers will be able to keep the Rogue identity intact.
    You mean the stereotypical archtypes promoted by early table top counter games?
    if this were true, why is it that my Mage isn't allowed to nuke you from 42m away with a 4 second casting ability?

    You really shouldn't be claiming that everyone will be better off following the Rogue archtype, when the very basis of RIFT is to use the term loosely.

    If it did not, you would not have Rogue or Cleric tank.
    You would not have Mage healing.
    You would not have Warrior support.

    Now as for the methods of debate I'll address this to both you and Ymirson.
    It is not the the job of the opponent to summarize YOUR argument for you.
    The opponent may summarize your argument at the END of their refutation, but ultimately they do not need to do so and really, that only occurs in a closing argument of a court case.

    Let alone it does have the large risk of misrepresenting someone's argument.

    In realms of scientific debate, each point is refuted after the other. So before you make statements such as "X method is done by highschool students." I suggest you take the time to actually read these debates, as they take on a style that addresses each point and are lengthy.

    As for your final point

    Pro Tip: No one reads that drivel. Summarize their argument and then present your own and you'll win simply because more people will read what you have to say.
    This is simply ridiculous in itself.
    A debate is not won based upon popularity, it is won based upon successful refutation of another individual's points, and the maintenance of your own argument when placed under scrutiny.

    Let's try not to function like Congress. We've seen how bad that works out.

    Edit: Just got home, will start working on my parse.
    An ACT breakdown of the old Haste shot spam vs DES spam.
    Last edited by Katosu; 05-07-2013 at 02:56 PM.

  11. #176
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    Default Parses

    Not my best parses

    Using Deadeye shot over Hasted Shot

    Code:
    TYPE                    DAMAGE     ENCDPS     AVERAGE    MEDIAN  MINHIT  MAXHIT  RESIST    HITS   SWINGS  TOHIT   CRIT%  
    All                     4,978,215  13,346.42  4,928.93   1,478   399     28,730  All       1,010  1,010   100.00  33%    
    Empowered Shot          1,394,909  3,739.70   18,115.70  15,060  13,585  24,197  Physical  77     77      100.00  40%    
    Swift Shot              1,286,980  3,450.35   5,985.95   5,838   1,939   9,415   Physical  215    215     100.00  43%    
    Deadeye Shot            1,163,298  3,118.76   23,265.96  18,354  17,818  28,730  Physical  50     50      100.00  48%    
    Rapid Fire Shot         583,777    1,565.09   4,490.59   3,907   3,188   6,150   Physical  130    130     100.00  35%    
    Static Shock Munitions  240,032    643.52     764.43     667     399     962     Air       314    314     100.00  34%    
    Spotter's Order TEST    137,093    367.54     1,331.00   1,331   1,331   1,331   Physical  103    103     100.00  0%     
    Auto Attack             129,565    347.36     1,177.86   1,138   758     1,880   Physical  110    110     100.00  34%    
    Hasted Shot             42,561     114.10     3,869.18   4,618   1,665   7,019   Physical  11     11      100.00  9%
    Hasted Shot spam and using DES only when bull's eye was off cooldown and of course, Strafe when energy was low.

    Code:
    TYPE                    DAMAGE     ENCDPS     AVERAGE    MEDIAN  MINHIT  MAXHIT  RESIST    HITS   SWINGS  TOHIT   CRIT%  
    All                     5,958,536  13,889.36  4,655.11   1,429   452     28,730  All       1,280  1,280   100.00  36%    
    Empowered Shot          1,780,139  4,149.51   18,351.95  15,254  12,604  24,198  Physical  97     97      100.00  44%    
    Swift Shot              1,386,151  3,231.12   5,949.15   5,832   1,935   9,418   Physical  233    233     100.00  44%    
    Hasted Shot             842,414    1,963.67   11,864.99  10,469  1,665   16,349  Physical  71     71      100.00  45%    
    Rapid Fire Shot         681,294    1,588.10   4,541.96   3,863   3,276   6,151   Physical  150    150     100.00  36%    
    Strafe                  428,746    999.41     10,718.65  9,136   8,401   14,480  Physical  40     40      100.00  38%    
    Static Shock Munitions  312,871    729.30     772.52     667     452     962     Air       405    405     100.00  36%    
    Auto Attack             178,849    416.90     1,224.99   1,177   754     1,873   Physical  146    146     100.00  38%    
    Spotter's Order TEST    175,692    409.54     1,331.00   1,331   1,331   1,331   Physical  132    132     100.00  0%     
    Deadeye Shot            172,380    401.82     28,730.00  28,730  28,730  28,730  Physical  6      6       100.00  100%

    I was sitting at around 14k and took a bit to get out of combat for the Hasted Shot parse.

    For the Deadeye shot parse I need to do it over.
    Was using a macro for Empowered Shot and Swift shot, and because DES is a casted and doesn't really "consume" the GCD I kept swift shotting instead of Empowered shotting which is a loss if Free Recoil has been used.

    Gonna reparse it but I was seeing a loss so far with DES.

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