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Thread: To all the endurance stacking tanks

  1. #1
    Shadowlander
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    Default To all the endurance stacking tanks

    I've had enough...To everyone saying "stack endurance" You are making tanks bad. I've watched you single-handedly corrupt tanks minds with your "stack endurance" message plastered all over the forums. Stack me (or any avoidance geared tank) up against a tank that has stacked endurance (or any other class tank for that matter) and we will stay alive longer every time--all the time. I'm not a hardcore raider but here are my stats:

    Armor: 58277 (43.79% reduction +2 Levels)
    Endurance: 4620 (50,670)
    Dexterity: 1524
    Deflect: 2677 (39.09%)
    Dodge: 1734 (7.36%)
    Parry: 1072 (4.55%)

    You can not just stack endurance and be "a more stable tank." You become a more stable tank by getting your avoidance stats up and reducing the chance of a "worst case scenario."

    Muspel quote: "Avoidance and deflect are a solution in search of a problem" Less avoidance stats = you get hit harder. You are stacking endurance to fix your avoidance problem.

    Wait until the healing bug gets normalized and everyone that is stacking endurance before avoidance gets crushed in experts and raids since healers will have a harder time keeping up. Reduce the amount of damage you take and healers will have an easier time keeping you up.

    For those of you judging tanks by their health, stop. If it makes you feel better to have...however much health you have, be my guest. Avoidance geared tanks will always survive longer. The whole point of avoidance stats is to reduce the amount of incoming damage. Endurance comes secondary to that to be a buffer for unmitigated hits. Stacking endurance is covering up your main issue...avoidance.

    Feel free to discuss this issue. This philosophy has always served me well (been rogue tanking since release) and more than likely, no amount of yelling and screaming about "endurance is your primary stat" will change my mind. When you hit your caps for your avoidance stats THEN stack endurance. That's my two cents, thanks for your time.
    Last edited by Xypherouryn; 02-01-2013 at 11:23 PM.

  2. #2
    Rift Master McWaffles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xypherouryn View Post
    I've had enough...To everyone saying "stack endurance" You are making tanks bad. I've watched you single-handedly corrupt tanks minds with your "stack endurance" message plastered all over the forums. Stack me (or any avoidance geared tank) up against a tank that has stacked endurance (or any other class tank for that matter) and we will stay alive longer every time--all the time. I'm not a hardcore raider but here are my stats:

    Armor: 58277 (43.79% reduction +2 Levels)
    Endurance: 4620 (50,670)
    Dexterity: 1524
    Deflect: 2677 (39.09%)
    Dodge: 1734 (7.36%)
    Parry: 1072 (4.55%)

    You can not just stack endurance and be "a more stable tank." You become a more stable tank by getting your avoidance stats up and reducing the chance of a "worst case scenario."

    Muspel quote: "Avoidance and deflect are a solution in search of a problem" Less avoidance stats = you get hit harder. You are stacking endurance to fix your avoidance problem.

    Wait until the healing bug gets normalized and everyone that is stacking endurance before avoidance gets crushed in experts and raids since healers will have a harder time keeping up. Reduce the amount of damage you take and healers will have an easier time keeping you up.

    For those of you judging tanks by their health, stop. If it makes you feel better to have...however much health you have, be my guest. Avoidance geared tanks will always survive longer. The whole point of avoidance stats is to reduce the amount of incoming damage. Endurance comes secondary to that to be a buffer for unmitigated hits. Stacking endurance is covering up your main issue...avoidance.

    Feel free to discuss this issue. This philosophy has always served me well (been rogue tanking since release) and more than likely, no amount of yelling and screaming about "endurance is your primary stat" will change my mind. When you hit your caps for your avoidance stats THEN stack endurance. That's my two cents, thanks for your time.
    And what do you do when all the large hits that can actually kill you are not able to be blocked/doged/parried?

    Even without chloro heals or broken defiler heals, I don't think I have ever died to attrition, and even endurance stacked, not only do you have more HP to survive longer after a healer goes down, but your cool downs are also better, since aegis and DD are based on a %age of your health.

    Please, continue to be an inferior tank in content that actually requires (to an extent) gear by stacking stacks that have little to ZERO benefit on bosses.
    "You're just realizing the fault of your species, human beings are the most untrustworthy, backstabbing creatures on this planet. Except for bears."

  3. #3
    Ascendant Primalthirst's Avatar
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    I (and others) advocate stacking Endurance because the vast majority of dangerous Boss attacks in raids cannot be Blocked/Dodged/Parried/Deflected/Misses.

    Regulos is an extreme example but he only auto-attacks every 12 seconds or more. The rest of his abilities, ie the ones that could actually kill you, cannot be avoided and the tank just has to take the hits.

    It's not a situation I'm happy with, but that's how it is. I think the game would greatly benefit from having the occasional encounter that favoured high Avoidance chance, but it doesn't at the moment.
    Last edited by Primalthirst; 02-01-2013 at 11:54 PM.
    Nope.

  4. #4
    Telaran
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    Quote Originally Posted by McWaffles View Post
    And what do you do when all the large hits that can actually kill you are not able to be blocked/doged/parried?
    Pretty sure cooldowns is what smart tanks would use to counter those hits, even specific healers can buffer those hits. Last time I checked nothing hits singularly for more then 42k health.

    Quote Originally Posted by McWaffles View Post
    Even without chloro heals or broken defiler heals, I don't think I have ever died to attrition, and even endurance stacked, not only do you have more HP to survive longer after a healer goes down, but your cool downs are also better, since aegis and DD are based on a %age of your health.
    What you state is true about the % increase for CD's effectively. Your scenario seems slightly off, even if a healer were to go down, your CD's + healers with their heads screwed on would adjust to the situation while the other healer is being brought back up. As much as you think a measly 3 - 4k + endurance would help, situationally your DD will be gone in 1 hit, your aegis will be gone in 1 hit, there's little to nothing you can do without your healers adapting properly. So intially your scenario is not based on endurance stacking, but more is more reliant on your healers.
    Last edited by Glimp; 02-02-2013 at 12:00 AM. Reason: Whoops.

  5. #5
    Soulwalker
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    Default ;-)

    Quote Originally Posted by Xypherouryn View Post
    I'm not a hardcore raider.

    Enough said

  6. #6
    Rift Master McWaffles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glimp View Post
    Pretty sure cooldowns is what smart tanks would use to counter those hits, even specific healers can buffer those hits. Last time I checked nothing hits singularly for more then 42k health.
    Too bad those hit's aren't even close to rare, and more often than not make up well over 80% of your damage taken, even using CD's as soon as available. Please after you tank raid content tell me avoidance is actually useful.



    Quote Originally Posted by Glimp View Post
    What you state is true about the % increase for CD's effectively. Your scenario seems slightly off, even if a healer were to go down, your CD's + healers with their heads screwed on would adjust to the situation while the other healer is being brought back up. As much as you think a measly 3 - 4k + endurance would help, situationally your DD will be gone in 1 hit, your aegis will be gone in 1 hit, there's little to nothing you can do without your healers adapting properly. So intially your scenario is not based on endurance stacking, but more is more reliant on your healers.
    The ONLY situation I have faced where I will die in a few seconds if a healer goes down is crucia's lightning breath. Her auto attack's are nearly non-existent, and so light as well as being during intermediate phases where the tank damage is irrelevant (a dot that can't be avoided and rare auto attacks amid casts of raid damage/cleanses between breaths), and guess what, her breath can not be avoided or blocked/deflected.

    And I was very much addressing expert tier tanks, because I don't know a single progressed raid tank that stacks anything other than endurance. In experts where you only have 1 healer it's entirely possible to survive from around 40% til the boss dies chaining cool downs properly and having enough health to survive.

    I guess if you like relying ENTIRELY on RNG to potentially, and that's if the few extra % of avoidance you gained are the numbers rolled to avoid hits that would kill you, rather than having 10k extra health which is another 5k on your aegis and 5k on DD as well, not to mention larger heals from planar rejuvenation (while small, they still add up in expert situations).

    TL;DR relying on RNG is the worst mistake you can make as a tank, especially when said RNG isn't even applicable on the vast majority of current raid bosses.
    Last edited by McWaffles; 02-02-2013 at 12:15 AM.
    "You're just realizing the fault of your species, human beings are the most untrustworthy, backstabbing creatures on this planet. Except for bears."

  7. #7
    RIFT Guide Writer
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    Avoidance is useful for tanking big packs of trash. In those cases the avoidance quickly averages out with the large number of incoming hits and acts the same way as mitigation. But like it has been already said, this is not the type of tanking that raiding tanks generally have to deal with but instead it's the single big hits type which are often not even possible to avoid.

    Endurance is also mitigation or avoidance in a roundabout way. If you have enough health that what you are tanking doesn't oneshot you then you can change your tank spec for more mitigation or avoidance. The typical tank spec is 61 RS, 8 Ranger, 7 Bard but you can swap that ranger for tactician for more armor, resists and a tiny bit of self heal when hit if you want more mitigation. Or you can for example do 61 RS, 9 Bard, 6 Bladedancer to get more avoidance and a really powerful avoidance cooldown or 61 RS, 12 Tactician, 2 Bladedancer for yet another cooldown and mitigation but a bit less avoidance than the previous build. But ultimately you still need to have enough endurance to use the higher mitigation/avoidance specs without falling to too low max health.

    I tanked Crucia with both 8 tactician/7 bard and 8 ranger/ 7 bard, both worked just fine. When I got to Regulos I had to go 8 Ranger, 7 Bard for maximum health. [Edit]
    Last edited by Thorne25; 02-02-2013 at 06:39 PM.

  8. #8
    Plane Walker
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    More randomness the more annoying and harder it is to heal. Your job as tank is to negate the randomness and make it so healers can react and predict the dmg you are getting.
    People who stack avoidance type of stats such as dodge,parry or deflect over mitigation,armor or hp...generally are pain in the ***. There's no any logic how they are getting hits. Sometimes they get zero hits and sometimes they ought to get big bursts out of nowhere.
    Im not saying you should neglect these stats totally, just prioritize which comes first.

    Some stuff in hardmodes can hit over 60k, almost 70k on tank every 10s. If you dont have enough endurance/mitigation...you get one shotted, simple as that.

  9. #9
    Shadowlander
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    Hardcore raider or not, for the current tier of content I am raiding (cleared 10 man working on FT), stacking endurance isn't working. I see tanks with much more health than me go down much quicker. For example, the first boss in TotDQ with Skyscream. Tanks stacking endurance above all else were dying too quickly with the stacking buff. Once I started tanking Skyscream (with my inferior avoidance stacking lol) the damage was smoother and much easier to heal to higher stacks. To most of you this content is trivial, you probably kill that boss in much less time than we do and don't have to deal with as many stacks as I do on Skyscream. I just know whats working best for the content we are clearing.

    Obviously, I have not seen the content most of you have and I do not have the gear you all have. I only know the content I've cleared and I appreciate the constructive feedback from most you. It will help while we continue to progress through content.

  10. #10
    MiO
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    You probably shoulda started this thread off with "compare my incoming damage against any other equally geared tank (of any class) that stacks end on an encounter that supports my gear choices and I will take less damage overall."


    Or, you know, something.


    Probably better than coming out calling raid tanks bad for gearing appropriately for the content they are running.

  11. #11
    Soulwalker
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    Having cleared all current content and have been testing the new hard modes i can say this.

    (some boss spoilers so dont read if you dont want to know)

    Deflect/Parry and Dodge are of course valuable stats, nobody is saying otherwise, but ill give you afew examples where these stats are either totally useless or just not as good as endurance.

    Crucia = As its already been said, you have a ticking dot on you and the lightning breath, the rest is trivial, the more health you have for this boss the less chunky the ticks are gonna feel and lets also bare in mind that Aegis and Defer death SCALE with your endurance.

    Matriarch = I tank her, she does 0 physical dmg..its all death damage, and if you have alot of -hp stacks and a sudden doom hits you (death damage) say goodbye. no amount of avoidance/mitigation is going to save you unless its a cooldown on that boss.

    Regulos = Void Assault cant be dodged/parried and its pretty much the only thing tanks need to worry about. and depending on how you handle the transition and how many -hp stacks you get, its not uncommon for a vanquish (the 1 single big hit one) to outright kill you unless you have a cooldown.

    Kain(HM) = this guy is Bursting for between 68 and 72k+ in 1.5 seconds, similar to normal mode, its not uncommon for me to have 3-5khp left after this burst (life's bane + auto attack followed by a quick auto attack)

    to sum up, right now the only thing killing me at least is either burst dmg or abilities that cannon be mitigated/avoided (or a mixture of both) and the bosses i mentioned are pretty much considered the hardest content in the game right now, apart from crucia which just got butchered.

  12. #12
    Champion Synergis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xypherouryn View Post
    I've had enough...To everyone saying "stack endurance" You are making tanks bad. I've watched you single-handedly corrupt tanks minds with your "stack endurance" message plastered all over the forums. Stack me (or any avoidance geared tank) up against a tank that has stacked endurance (or any other class tank for that matter) and we will stay alive longer every time--all the time. I'm not a hardcore raider but here are my stats:

    Armor: 58277 (43.79% reduction +2 Levels)
    Endurance: 4620 (50,670)
    Dexterity: 1524
    Deflect: 2677 (39.09%)
    Dodge: 1734 (7.36%)
    Parry: 1072 (4.55%)

    You can not just stack endurance and be "a more stable tank." You become a more stable tank by getting your avoidance stats up and reducing the chance of a "worst case scenario."

    Muspel quote: "Avoidance and deflect are a solution in search of a problem" Less avoidance stats = you get hit harder. You are stacking endurance to fix your avoidance problem.

    Wait until the healing bug gets normalized and everyone that is stacking endurance before avoidance gets crushed in experts and raids since healers will have a harder time keeping up. Reduce the amount of damage you take and healers will have an easier time keeping you up.

    For those of you judging tanks by their health, stop. If it makes you feel better to have...however much health you have, be my guest. Avoidance geared tanks will always survive longer. The whole point of avoidance stats is to reduce the amount of incoming damage. Endurance comes secondary to that to be a buffer for unmitigated hits. Stacking endurance is covering up your main issue...avoidance.

    Feel free to discuss this issue. This philosophy has always served me well (been rogue tanking since release) and more than likely, no amount of yelling and screaming about "endurance is your primary stat" will change my mind. When you hit your caps for your avoidance stats THEN stack endurance. That's my two cents, thanks for your time.
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  13. #13
    Ascendant Rounded's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xypherouryn View Post
    I've had enough...To everyone saying "stack endurance" <nip>
    Rift Guard. 4th tier, 2nd from right.

  14. #14
    Prophet of Telara Delmlord's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xypherouryn View Post
    I've had enough...
    self buffed

    Armor: 55941 (42.79% reduction +2 Levels)
    Endurance: 5343 (59,360)
    Dexterity: 1422
    Deflect: 2689 (39.24)
    Dodge: 1519 (6.45%)
    Parry: 1004 (4.26%)

    But it's true though.. stacking endurance is the best.

    I was just like you Xypherouryn I was skeptical about that whole thing so I made sure to keep my deflect and dodge high as well along with my endurance. At first I started my gear by mainly stack deflect for the high chance but stacking anything other than endurance isn't worth it, I've tested it.

    I still refuse to focus on dodge and parry but when I switched from deflect focused gear to endurance I gained roughly 3k health and lost 1% of deflect. So do you really want to push stacking mitigation so far that you sacrifice meaningful amount of health, that could be the difference of whether you live or die for a 1-3% deflect/dodge/parry chance for something that CAN'T be avoided?

    Kind of reminded of when I got hit for 62,233 the other day on first boss FT and died in 1 hit. made me think maybe if I listened and stacked purely endurance instead of keeping up a decent deflect % I would have lived lol.
    Last edited by Delmlord; 02-02-2013 at 04:55 AM. Reason: can't speel
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  15. #15
    RIFT Guide Writer Muspel's Avatar
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    I saw the thread title and thought that I'd need to repeat myself again, but you guys did it all for me.

    Thanks for saving my sanity.

    <3

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