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Thread: Deflect vs Endurance

  1. #1
    Rift Disciple
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    Default Deflect vs Endurance

    I'm trying to decide how much endurance is "ok" to give up if you can increase your deflect.

    On Torvan essences, if you HAD to choose between these two essences, which would you pick?

    Hunt Prime Shadow Knight's Rotward
    http://rift.zam.com/en/item/B9CCACE6...ht%27s-Rotward

    59 end
    79 deflect

    Hunt Prime Shadow Knight's Lifewood
    http://rift.zam.com/en/item/D9EAC1EA...t%27s-Lifewood

    66 end
    42 parry

    ----------

    My gut says 79 deflect is worth giving up 7 endurance, if I had to choose between these two. What say you?

  2. #2
    Plane Touched Akizuki's Avatar
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    79 deflect is 1% deflection chance.

    So yeah, 79 deflect > 7 End + 42 Parry

  3. #3
    RIFT Guide Writer Muspel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Searril View Post
    My gut says 79 deflect is worth giving up 7 endurance, if I had to choose between these two. What say you?
    Go with the endurance. Always the endurance. Deflect is better than dodge and parry, but that just makes it the least bad out of three awful stats.

    Any time you choose to stack avoidance/deflect instead of endurance/armor/resists, you're making yourself take slightly less damage on average, but increasing the chance that you'll die in the worst-case scenario when you take several unmitigated hits in a row (which is pretty common no matter how much avoidance you stack).

    And tanking is all about stability, which means minimizing how painful the worst-case scenario is. Hence, endurance.

    The only thing that avoidance and deflect are any good for is reducing the amount of healing you require, but healer output is so high that you don't actually need to take less damage for them to keep you up. Attrition just doesn't kill tanks.

    The biggest tank-killer is burst damage, and to survive that, you need enough effective health so that your healers have time to react and top you off.
    Last edited by Muspel; 02-01-2013 at 08:14 PM.

  4. #4
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    I don't think it's as black and white as Muspel says it is, nor do I think that there's some perfect formula that you can apply will apply for all situations.

    i.e. Would I get a Wisdom + End essence over a Dext+End jsut because the wis one has 2 more end?

    It's all judgement, with a comparison of the items that you have available. You'll need a certain level of End/Health depending on what tier of content you're doing. If you can substantially stack over that, all the better, further increasing your TTL. But if it's not going to make a practical difference, and you can get a huge mitigation bonus, then go for that.

    Please note, I apply this across all gear. If you're sacrificing 5 pts of End on each piece of gear to get higher mitigation bonuses, then you end up loosing almost 100 points of End, which is a huge drop.

  5. #5
    RIFT Guide Writer Muspel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Caldorian View Post
    I don't think it's as black and white as Muspel says it is, nor do I think that there's some perfect formula that you can apply will apply for all situations.

    i.e. Would I get a Wisdom + End essence over a Dext+End jsut because the wis one has 2 more end?
    Yes, although you should definitely pass on that essence if a cleric tank needs it, because they'll still benefit from it more than you will.

    Quote Originally Posted by Caldorian View Post
    It's all judgement, with a comparison of the items that you have available. You'll need a certain level of End/Health depending on what tier of content you're doing. If you can substantially stack over that, all the better, further increasing your TTL. But if it's not going to make a practical difference, and you can get a huge mitigation bonus, then go for that.
    Realistically, you're never going to be able to reach a comfortable level of EH for any content unless you outgear it by at least a tier, and if you're getting gear from the next tier, that means you're running the next tier's content and you need more EH for that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Caldorian View Post
    Please note, I apply this across all gear. If you're sacrificing 5 pts of End on each piece of gear to get higher mitigation bonuses, then you end up loosing almost 100 points of End, which is a huge drop.
    Agreed. Each piece of gear is a tiny difference, so making the "wrong" decision on one item is unlikely to make or break you. The main reason that I hammer away at this all the time is because, like you said, small decisions add up.

  6. #6
    Ascendant MoonfireSpam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Muspel View Post
    Realistically, you're never going to be able to reach a comfortable level of EH for any content unless you outgear it by at least a tier, and if you're getting gear from the next tier, that means you're running the next tier's content and you need more EH for that.
    That I'd have to disagree with.

    With the gear and buffs available right now, in this tier, you can get way more EH than you would ever need to survive anything that's meant to be survived as a tank.

    Most people just don't have a full set of raid tier gear yet.

    Your hp starts going up, alot, once you do. And the raid armor comes with better armor rating too.

    I sit at ~63k self buffed with a peak max hp pool of like 75k with full raid consumables, buffs and temporary hp buffs if I should need them in anticipation of large hits.

    I've survived Crucia's lightning breath without a personal CD or a CD from a healer, though its still somewhat risky.

    And that's still not with BiS tank items. I've something like 120 endurance between what I have now and my personal list of what I want.

    So... yeah. The gear available for this tier is pretty overkill for this content; especially if they plan on continuously unnecessarily nerfing said content.
    So long, and thanks for all the fish~

  7. #7
    RIFT Guide Writer Muspel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MoonfireSpam View Post
    That I'd have to disagree with.

    With the gear and buffs available right now, in this tier, you can get way more EH than you would ever need to survive anything that's meant to be survived as a tank.

    Most people just don't have a full set of raid tier gear yet.

    Your hp starts going up, alot, once you do. And the raid armor comes with better armor rating too.

    I sit at ~63k self buffed with a peak max hp pool of like 75k with full raid consumables, buffs and temporary hp buffs if I should need them in anticipation of large hits.

    I've survived Crucia's lightning breath without a personal CD or a CD from a healer, though its still somewhat risky.

    And that's still not with BiS tank items. I've something like 120 endurance between what I have now and my personal list of what I want.

    So... yeah. The gear available for this tier is pretty overkill for this content; especially if they plan on continuously unnecessarily nerfing said content.
    I've taken over 70k from Kain in less than two seconds. (And no, I wasn't solo soaking a Life Bane.)

    And it's not just about being 1-shotted or even 3-shotted. Even if you have enough health to survive any given combo with a tiny sliver of health left, that's still not enough, because that assumes you're going into it completely topped off, and that's not always the case. More endurance lets you survive while being 1k, 2k, or even 5k short of your max health. Or if your healer has to move right as you're getting wrecked, or if he dies, or any number of any scenarios.

    Endurance is the most valuable stat by a huge margin until you can survive for 6-8 seconds without any heals, and that's completely unattainable.
    Last edited by Muspel; 01-31-2013 at 12:34 PM.

  8. #8
    RIFT Guide Writer Redcruxs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Muspel View Post
    Endurance is the most valuable stat by a huge margin until you can survive for 6-8 seconds without any heals, and that's completely unattainable.
    you can easily survive 6-8 seconds by using cooldowns

    In theory yes, you will survive longer without heals with higher endurance, but if you forsake average mitigation then in reality you will always be relying on your healers to give you maximum throughput. As soon as the healers throughput decreases (mechanics etc.) you are entering the "worst case" scenario that you speak of.

    With higher average mitigation, it requires less healer throughput to keep you up and thus your healers can afford to decrease their healing a little in order to react to mechanics without your health dropping like a rock. Most healers have instant cast heals that they can use while they move, and you'll still be recieving relatively small AoE heals all the time but if your average mitigation is too low those won't be enough to keep you alive.

    There is almost never a time where you are receiving NO heals, you're always getting some bard or chloro or have some hots ticking. In reality tanking/healing is always a battle of attrition, right now its just heavily skewed twards damage which makes endurance very desireable. However the higher you get your average mitigation the closer you get to achiving that tipping point where the little heals you always receive form a bigger and bigger part of your survivability, and your cooldowns are more and more effective and you can survive longer and longer.

    We've already been round and around this topic though so this will just be my 2 copper, no more arguments from me.

  9. #9
    RIFT Guide Writer Muspel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Redcruxs View Post
    you can easily survive 6-8 seconds by using cooldowns
    I meant without cooldowns.

    Quote Originally Posted by Redcruxs View Post
    In theory yes, you will survive longer without heals with higher endurance, but if you forsake average mitigation then in reality you will always be relying on your healers to give you maximum throughput. As soon as the healers throughput decreases (mechanics etc.) you are entering the "worst case" scenario that you speak of.
    I don't think you know what you're talking about. Avoidance-focused builds are MORE vulnerable when healer output decreases, because they don't have the effective health to reliably survive without heals.

    Quote Originally Posted by Redcruxs View Post
    With higher average mitigation, it requires less healer throughput to keep you up and thus your healers can afford to decrease their healing a little in order to react to mechanics without your health dropping like a rock. Most healers have instant cast heals that they can use while they move, and you'll still be recieving relatively small AoE heals all the time but if your average mitigation is too low those won't be enough to keep you alive.
    I challenge you to find a situation where healer thoroughput is a meaningful problem. Tanks do not die from attrition, period.

    Quote Originally Posted by Redcruxs View Post
    There is almost never a time where you are receiving NO heals, you're always getting some bard or chloro or have some hots ticking. In reality tanking/healing is always a battle of attrition, right now its just heavily skewed twards damage which makes endurance very desireable. However the higher you get your average mitigation the closer you get to achiving that tipping point where the little heals you always receive form a bigger and bigger part of your survivability, and your cooldowns are more and more effective and you can survive longer and longer.
    Sure, you're always getting some heals, but that doesn't increase the value of avoidance or diminish the value of endurance.

    Quote Originally Posted by Redcruxs View Post
    We've already been round and around this topic though so this will just be my 2 copper, no more arguments from me.
    I refuted every single one of your arguments last time. I'm not trying to be abrasive or disrespectful, but you were wrong then, and you're wrong now.

  10. #10
    Ascendant MoonfireSpam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Muspel View Post
    I've taken over 70k from Kain in less than two seconds. (And no, I wasn't solo soaking a Life Bane.)
    This vaguely reminds me of those threads in the past where people claimed to have taken 45k spikes from Gelidra.

    All I can say is that I've never experienced such a spike; neither the 45k from gelidra nor the 70k from Kain (though tbh, 2s is an eternity for you or one of your healers to react) The only explanation I can think of is improper buff/debuff management by the raid as a whole.

    I still maintain that the gear available in this tier is far more than adequate for the content.

    You cannot simply dismiss CDs, we're not talking about tanking in a vacuum. They're there, and they're meant to be used. And I'm more than certain that encounters were designed with this in mind.

    Now if you're talking about the herp-derp tank and spank scenario where you ignore every mechanic in a fight and just go... then I suppose yeah, we're not gonna do that with this tier of gear. Or the next... or the one after that.
    So long, and thanks for all the fish~

  11. #11
    Ascendant Primalthirst's Avatar
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    I'm not entirely sure which one I'd go with, but I'd lean toward the Endurance/Parry one rather than the Deflect one.

    At this stage of the game there's almost no challenging content where auto-attacks or avoidable damage are the primary issue. It's almost always things like Lightning Breath or Lacerating Cascade, the damage is either unavoidable and/or a DoT.

    It does make Dodge/Parry/Block/Deflect useless in a lot of the most dangerous situations, whereas Endurance is always helpful.
    Last edited by Primalthirst; 02-01-2013 at 12:59 AM.
    Nope.

  12. #12
    RIFT Guide Writer Nynja's Avatar
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    If you want my opinion as well....

    Stack Endurance or go to hell!-------literally...
    Quite@Typhiria
    -GreatWhiteNinja- he was right after all -
    61 Dominator Guide
    Nightmare rifts - An indepth guide to reach stage 300

  13. #13
    Ascendant MoonfireSpam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Primalthirst View Post
    I'm not entirely sure which one I'd go with, but I'd lean toward the Endurance/Parry one rather than the Deflect one.

    At this stage of the game there's almost no challenging content where auto-attacks or avoidable damage are the primary issue. It's almost always things like Lightning Breath or Lacerating Cascade, the damage is either unavoidable and/or a DoT.

    It does make Dodge/Parry/Block/Deflect useless in a lot of the most dangerous situations, whereas Endurance is always helpful.
    There are a number of tank swap stack-generating attacks that can be avoided (and thus generate no stack)

    Which doesn't make parry/dodge completely useless, though even if you did stack it and took BD as a subsoul, it'd still be subject to RNG and probably far from desirable.
    So long, and thanks for all the fish~

  14. #14
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    These are the current essences im using in my machine, and i use this machine for all current content (no air or death heavy machines)

    http://rift.zam.com/en/item/949C80C0...uned-Boneshard
    http://rift.zam.com/en/item/EFB4A4EB...rounding-Stone
    http://rift.zam.com/en/item/DBF78FF6...%27s-Hailshard
    http://rift.zam.com/en/item/F5FD9331...7s-Lightbender
    http://rift.zam.com/en/item/908090AE...Dense-Ebonseed
    http://rift.zam.com/en/item/D9EAC1EA...t%27s-Lifewood

    for me, this is the BiS in terms of rounded stats and heavy endurance, there is 1 other lesser you can get which has 64 endurance instead of the deflect heavy one with 63 endurance. but for 1 endurance i came to the conclusion i would rather have the mass deflect over dodge.

    without giving to much away, the current version of HM Kain is hitting like a truck, he can easily burst for over 70k+ (life's bane + auto attack followed by a quick auto attack) and its not uncommon to be around the 3-5k hp mark after a life's bane, this also seems to be the case with galidra (increased dmg on her abilities) i sit anyware between 69k hp and 72k hp (depending on if we use a deflier or not) and would STILL like alittle bit more endurance as a buffer.

    so overall i rate endurance waaaaaaay ahead of any other stat. and Armor = King

  15. #15
    RIFT Guide Writer Muspel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MoonfireSpam View Post
    All I can say is that I've never experienced such a spike; neither the 45k from gelidra nor the 70k from Kain (though tbh, 2s is an eternity for you or one of your healers to react) The only explanation I can think of is improper buff/debuff management by the raid as a whole.
    Code:
    [03:52:45]   Muspelheim was killed by Kain the Reaper.Less...  
     [03:52:45]    Kain the Reaper hit Muspelheim with Attack for 32,769 Physical Damage (2,466 absorbed, 9,175 overkill)
     [03:52:44]    Aseon healed Muspelheim with Lifebound Veil for 9,519
     [03:52:44]    Tranceaddict healed Muspelheim with Shared Excess for 528
     [03:52:44]    Cericx healed Muspelheim with Salvation for 434
     [03:52:44]    Cericx critically healed Muspelheim with Salvation for 667
     [03:52:43]    Hulkamania healed Muspelheim with Withering Vine for 0 (420 overheal)
     [03:52:43]    Kain the Reaper hit Muspelheim with Life Bane for 17,484 Death Damage (1,316 absorbed)
     [03:52:43]    Kain the Reaper hit Muspelheim with Attack for 31,838 Physical Damage (2,396 absorbed)
    I was wrong. It wasn't 70k, it was 82k. Sure, the healers should been more on their toes so that I'd be healed more between those hits, but the fact remains that boss burst damage is completely out of control.
    Last edited by Muspel; 02-01-2013 at 06:28 AM.

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