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Thread: It may just be me. . . (Current State of Rogues)

  1. #1
    Telaran
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    Default It may just be me. . . (Current State of Rogues)

    I don't know about the majority of rogues but when I think rogue, I don't think Ranger, Marksmen, Sabo or even Tact. I think daggers, shadows, melee and dirty fighting. I'm not saying that melee is the definition of a rogue nor should it be the only thing a rogue does but it feels as of late that Trion is perfectly content with making rogues, ranged. One of our top parsing specs is ranged, never mind the fact that it's bugged but it's the fact that it's ranged that bugs me. Let's say you want to compete with the DPS sabo/ranger puts out, you have to exploit a bug in nightblade to get anywhere near those numbers.

    I didn't sign on as a rogue to be ranged and Trion has always slapped the faces of those wanting to be melee. I'll agree that for the most part they made the fight's more melee friendly, but what's the point of having melee friendly encounters when it's pointless to go melee?

    I know this seems like a lot of Q.Q and who am I to complain when Mages and Clerics keep getting the shaft but it seems to me, as far as melee dps goes, warriors are again #1 and good for them but it begs the question, what direction does Trion wish to take rogues? Are we supposed to be a ranged class? Or should we have the option to go melee? I would like to know because i've found myself in the position of not having fun anymore. I do not have fun on my rogue because for the most part what I enjoy the most about rogue is the aspect of melee. I don't mind playing ranged but i'd rather be playing ranged on a mage or a cleric but I can't do that because there is no desire to bring any of those classes right now. Can't go warrior because most guilds are flooded with warrior dps.

    Sad part is I wouldn't even be asking these questions if the devs would communicate with us. Yes it sucks a great deal that Trion was hit with lays offs and my heart goes to all those affected by it and this may sound harsh but that's not an excuse to keep it's player base in the dark. Trion promised that this would not just be a game but a service and right now I don't see the "service aspect."

    It would be nice if our dev would communicate with us and yes I am aware that he has a lot on his plate but again that's no excuse. I don't know, perhaps i'm the only one that feels like rogues have always been the red headed step child of Rift but as of late, I feel less and less like a rogue and more and more like a mage with a bow.
    Last edited by Aisell; 01-13-2013 at 11:17 PM.

  2. #2
    Ascendant Rounded's Avatar
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    BD is by design the highest rogue DPS spec.

    At the moment, ranger/sab is double-dipping.
    NB is doing stupid amounts of damage with fiery spike.
    40MM/36rng is maybe doing slightly too much damage.

    But most importantly, BD will lose on DPS to ranged specs if you have to disconnect from the boss and/or there are swapping mechanisms which force you to run distances and the charge is on CD.

    It's not that melee is worse, it's just ranged being more convenient, reliable and dare I say it, easier.
    Last edited by Rounded; 01-14-2013 at 12:42 AM.

  3. #3
    Telaran
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rounded View Post
    BD is by design the highest rogue DPS spec.

    At the moment, ranger/sab is double-dipping.
    NB is doing stupid amounts of damage with fiery spike.
    40MM/36rng is maybe doing slightly too much damage.

    But most importantly, BD will lose on DPS to ranged specs if you have to disconnect from the boss and/or there are swapping mechanisms which force you to run distances and the charge is on CD.

    It's not that melee is worse, it's just ranged being more convenient, reliable and dare I say it, easier.
    I don't know about BD being our highest parsing melee specs, i've gotten more out of Assassin but Assassin doesn't have aoe. . it's useless for most fights.

    Let's say BD is the highest parsing spec, in practice, I highly doubt that. The disconnects kill that spec and I don't know of any fight where we can sit there and pew pew. In practice, i'd say it'd be our lowest dpsing spec in practice.

    But that's not the point, BD is basically a warrior hell it even uses follow up attacks like a warrior. My point is, the only specs we have to compete with warriors are ranged and two of them are bugged. Nightblade is also bugged, the only way we can compete with warriors . . are bugs.

  4. #4
    Telaran
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    because the top parsing warrior specs are bug free ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mordim View Post
    because the top parsing warrior specs are bug free ?
    To my knowledge the only thing plaguing warrior DPS is the way dots are working.

    Nightblade Fiery spike will count for 36% of a rogue's DPS and will tick for 11 to 15k depending on gear.

  6. #6
    Sword of Telara Gynxz's Avatar
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    I will start by saying I do agree we need more Melee love. I would love a complex soul like Bloodstalker again so fights are not as boring.

    With that said...

    If we go by the definition of rogue (scoundrel, villain, outlaw..) there's really no place for one in the quest to save Telara. Warriors, clerics and mages with a Thief? By this definition the only soul that make sense are Assassin, Saboteur and Night Blade(although the use of magic is not too iconic). Clearly not an artist like a Blade dancer.

    On the other side and depending on who you ask, one of the most famous rogues is named Robin of the Hood a bow master.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aisell View Post
    Let's say you want to compete with the DPS sabo/ranger puts out, you have to exploit a bug in nightblade to get anywhere near those numbers.
    Don't forget that you are trying to compete against a bug. So yes you have to exploit a bug to compete with a bug and that should never be your goal nor comparison.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aisell View Post
    I'll agree that for the most part they made the fight's more melee friendly, but what's the point of having melee friendly encounters when it's pointless to go melee?
    BD is competitive and viable in Gelidra/Zav/Twins and at least the second boss in EE. The first boss... meh since more melee = less control over ground circles and shield dps.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aisell View Post
    Can't go warrior because most guilds are flooded with warrior dps.
    ?? ?? ... ?? There are less Warriors in your raid group than rogues.

    I agree with your cry... just not with the points you brought to back it up. It IS sad that Rogues have to go to obscure builds to stay competitive (sabdancer, bloodstalker) during progression and the fact that the current melee specs make no significant contribution besides Lethal poison.

  7. #7
    Telaran
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gynxz View Post
    I will start by saying I do agree we need more Melee love. I would love a complex soul like Bloodstalker again so fights are not as boring.

    With that said...

    If we go by the definition of rogue (scoundrel, villain, outlaw..) there's really no place for one in the quest to save Telara. Warriors, clerics and mages with a Thief? By this definition the only soul that make sense are Assassin, Saboteur and Night Blade(although the use of magic is not too iconic). Clearly not an artist like a Blade dancer.

    On the other side and depending on who you ask, one of the most famous rogues is named Robin of the Hood a bow master.


    Don't forget that you are trying to compete against a bug. So yes you have to exploit a bug to compete with a bug and that should never be your goal nor comparison.


    BD is competitive and viable in Gelidra/Zav/Twins and at least the second boss in EE. The first boss... meh since more melee = less control over ground circles and shield dps.


    ?? ?? ... ?? There are less Warriors in your raid group than rogues.

    I agree with your cry... just not with the points you brought to back it up. It IS sad that Rogues have to go to obscure builds to stay competitive (sabdancer, bloodstalker) during progression and the fact that the current melee specs make no significant contribution besides Lethal poison.
    Touching on the subject of Robin The Hood, depending on which source material you use will depend on what Robin the Hood was. If you read the stories you will find that Robin the Hood was equally skilled with a sword.

    If you take historical readings, theories so on, you will find that Robin the Hood would have most likely been an archer in service. Archers where expensive to train. They where fitted with chain mail and trained with a bow AND melee weapons sense often times Archers where used for skirmishes and to protect the rear.

    If you take the modern incarnation of Robin the Hood, those in children books and so on then yes he was a bow master.

    I'm not sure how lore got introduced, touching on that subject is a nightmare all together. The lore in Rift is both deep and sometimes just silly.

    Me referencing those bugged specs was an attempt to make a point that most of our competitive dps is bugged. Perhaps used incorrectly, point being we have 3 specs that push our best numbers and they are bugged. That leaves us with BD as our only viable raid dps spec, assuming you are excluding all other bugged specs.

  8. #8
    Plane Touched
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    Is this a class discussion or a roleplay discussion? Anyway, our melee specs are worth playing even though NB only because it's bugged atm. Sin is still very strong in ST and BD has a nice composition of AOE and ST, although there is no need to play it atm (and it feels very clunky, not the rotation but the "stand right next to it or hit thin air" feel).

    And between stealthily handling your daggers, weaving dark powers into your attacks, carefully laying traps and attaching chargest to unaware enemies, as well as sniping enemies from a far and calling the powers of nature to the hunt, those are all more or less rogueish professions and fit fully to my mental image of the average Rogue born into Telara.
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  9. #9
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    There has always been more or less friction when it comes to these kind of discussions. As I view it, Trion's intention might have been to lever out the stereotypifcal concept of each class and its role in the game (ie a Rogue needs to fight with daggers from the shadows and deep down in its heart, he will always act as the scoundrel he is etc.) This concept was derived by RPGs and are by no way the norm these days. Aside from that. yup, I'd welcome a shift towards melee, too.
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  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Terrordar View Post
    Is this a class discussion or a roleplay discussion? Anyway, our melee specs are worth playing even though NB only because it's bugged atm. Sin is still very strong in ST and BD has a nice composition of AOE and ST, although there is no need to play it atm (and it feels very clunky, not the rotation but the "stand right next to it or hit thin air" feel).

    And between stealthily handling your daggers, weaving dark powers into your attacks, carefully laying traps and attaching chargest to unaware enemies, as well as sniping enemies from a far and calling the powers of nature to the hunt, those are all more or less rogueish professions and fit fully to my mental image of the average Rogue born into Telara.
    Yeah NB does the damage because it's bugged but what happens when Trion fixes the bugs? We're stuck with MM/RG and BD when the fight allows it. Assassin is pointless save for the 5 percent crit debuff

    Point of this is that Trion has decided that rogues are mostly ranged and time and time again our top parsing spec has been ranged or some ******ed spec like sab dancer. It took trion forever to give us bloodstalker/denise and that wasn't really usable on to many fights because of the blink aspect.

  11. #11
    RIFT Guide Writer Muspel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aisell View Post
    Yeah NB does the damage because it's bugged but what happens when Trion fixes the bugs? We're stuck with MM/RG and BD when the fight allows it. Assassin is pointless save for the 5 percent crit debuff

    Point of this is that Trion has decided that rogues are mostly ranged and time and time again our top parsing spec has been ranged or some ******ed spec like sab dancer. It took trion forever to give us bloodstalker/denise and that wasn't really usable on to many fights because of the blink aspect.
    Prior to Storm Legion, Bladedancer and Nightblade were ahead of ranged specs as well, even when Bloodstalker was dominant. They still are.

    And in Storm Legion, even without the Fiery Spike bug, Nightblade still pulls more DPS than the ranged specs. So does Bladedancer.

  12. #12
    Shield of Telara ptorretta's Avatar
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    I run BD and Assasin for ST and Assasin if done right can beat BD by about 50 dps, I prefer BD due to placement issues.

    With that said MOST of my rogues on raids run variations of ranged dps, and I honestly think they will change the sab thing but it is competitive with the Marks Ranger Spec.

    I have done a ton of parsing over the last couple weeks with a plethora of specs and NB is crazy with the bug but still engergy starved, Tactman same issue with energy starvation but can carry AoE.

    I still think rogues are in a pretty good spot other than 61 marks and ranger just not even coming close to hybrid builds for ranged ...

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  13. #13
    Plane Touched
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    Right now Rogues are in an awesome position - enjoy it while it lasts!
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  14. #14
    Ascendant Gunzip's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Terrordar View Post
    Right now Rogues are in an awesome position - enjoy it while it lasts!
    Have to agree with this, lets hope they don't demote rogues to the status they held for the release game.
    Quote Originally Posted by Muspel View Post
    I believe Assassin DoTs are uncleansable.

    It's still a terrible PvP spec compared to Marksman, though.

  15. #15
    Sword of Telara Gynxz's Avatar
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    I think this thread is another case of "what am I doing wrong" rather than real problems with the class. A bugged spec should never be the benchmark for a "state of the class" argument.

    Melee just, sometimes, requires slightly more awareness and reaction time to pull it off.

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