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Thread: Serious Question - Crit Power

  1. #1
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    Default Serious Question - Crit Power

    I notice tons of gear for rogues dropping, with and without endurance, or AP, or deflect, or dodge, etc.

    Which spec is finding high Crit Power most useful?

    Are you also looking for one or another ability with it? - such as AP, or Phys Crit, or others?

    Is that spec your main or a sub-spec choice? For any particular reason?

    I do dps / ranged mostly with AP, bard or tact or mm/rgr.

    Is there a dps spec using crit power mostly?

    Thanks in advance.
    Last edited by Chaszar; 01-13-2013 at 03:20 PM.

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    Crit power becomes more valuable as your crit chance increases. That means that specs which have large amounts of +crit chance talents benefit the most out of it and also in a raid environment you get crit chance buffs and debuffs. MM/Ranger is the best example of a build that benefits a lot from crit power.

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    Has anyone tested a high CP gear layout with a Bladedancer build? Because of the very high crit chance during BaSP I'm thinking CP could be particularly effective for that soul.

    Specifically, I've been playing around a bit with a 61 BD/9 SIN/6 RNG crit build and it seems kind of promising for that sort of gear, but truthfully my DPS gear is still too poor to really say yet (been focusing on my tank stuff pretty exclusively and having to mainly make do with leftover random drops).
    Last edited by Kedon; 01-13-2013 at 06:01 PM.

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    Rift Disciple Warhaz's Avatar
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    Different people will give you different answers for AP vs CP vs Crit

    Many arguments about being based on build, buff availability, tier your in, circumstance etc are all valid points.

    BUT....

    AP - Does not cap and equates ~1 dps for every 5 points. Many Many builds contain BIG ap damage adjustments too... AP is always a good things to have, and almost every build wants it by the bucket.

    CP (Crit Power) does cap, and is only usefull provided you crit. However, you seem to get larger doses of crit power, on each item, than you do crit rating. Crit power also accumulates (percentage wise) easier than crit value does.

    Crit - Is just horribly difficult and painful to gear up for. Im not exactly sure of the exact number, i think its ~126 crit value just to get 1% crit chance.

    Given the buffs available in raids, You will do yourself justice by valuing crit power over crit value. Many buffs are direct % increases, not crit value increases.
    For similar reasons, there are not many buffs out there that buff crit power. You largely need to do this through gear alone.

    However, while all the above is somewhat ambiguous...
    Look at each item individually. Are you getting a big bang of anything specifically?
    Personally, if AP is higher than CP, i take the AP, if CP is higher than AP, then i pause to think by how much, and what im replacing.

    Remember re Crit power though....
    Out of the box (no crit power) your crits do 1.5x more damage than normal.
    Crit power will stop being effective once your crits are doing 2x more damage than a normal hit. My math sucks, but you can work out the crit power cap from there.... feels like ~33%
    Last edited by Warhaz; 01-13-2013 at 06:26 PM.

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    Ascendant Rounded's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Warhaz View Post
    Remember re Crit power though....
    Out of the box (no crit power) your crits do 1.5x more damage than normal.
    Crit power will stop being effective once your crits are doing 2x more damage than a normal hit. My math sucks, but you can work out the crit power cap from there.... feels like ~33%
    It's 50%. From 150pp (percentage point) bonus to 200pp bonus is a 50pp difference.

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    There is no universally agreed-upon answer to this question. I, personally, have been hoping for the day a mathematician would arise from the ranks of rogues on the forum and do the math for us once and for all.

    Until that time, I'll offer you my feeble-minded answer:

    Crit power seems to offer, percent for percent, a substantially larger increase to dps than physical crit. Given that it takes many fewer CP to gain 1% of crit power than it does Physical Crit to gain 1% crit chance, the choice here is obvious. Raids provide plenty of free crit chance, meaning gear should be used to maximize that value by adding CP. (interestingly, I have yet to see clear proof of whether CP is applied during the crit calculation, or after the fact -- this would have a singificant bearing on how important crit power is).

    As far as AP vs CP is concerned, I can barely venture a guess. AP is always going to be a safe choice since it will improve damage across the board, regardless of variables. I have always taken the attitude that AP is the best choice when you are not 100% that you're going to be playing a crit-heavy spec for a while. For example, weapon enchants such as NB blades cannot crit (and the spec's overall crit is low anyhow), so your CP is going to lose a serious amount of effectiveness in that build. On the other hand, I saw my dps skyrocket in the MM/RNG and RNG/SAB/SIN builds after switching 3 or 4 AP pieces to CP. In this sense, I see a purpose keeping a good piece of gear with either stat for as many gear slots as possible. That way, if you switch to a crit-heavy build you can pop your CP stuff on, and when looking for more stable damage equip the AP.

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    Rift Disciple Nimbis's Avatar
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    One more thing to think about when looking at AP vs CP is raid buffs.

    I'm 99% sure that when people post stat weights they are using full 20 man raid buffs to calculate the weights. As in crit from bard buffs, 5% crit from lethal, the tempest crit buff, and a vial. This is 10-15% more crit then you will have in a 5 or 10 man.

    So in my opinion if you are doing mostly 5 or 10 mans AP will always be better. If you are running 20 mans craft your stuff with the dex / CP augs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nazareth01 View Post
    There is no universally agreed-upon answer to this question. I, personally, have been hoping for the day a mathematician would arise from the ranks of rogues on the forum and do the math for us once and for all.
    The problem with a mathematical approach is that the diminishing returns on crit power and physical crit continuously scale based on the amount of CP/PC you already have. For instance, at 70 crit power, you have a 2.50% bonus to your crits. That works out to (70/2.5)=28. If you add 4 crit power, you'd expect your percentage bonus to increase to 2.64, however it only scales up to 2.60 which changes the exchange rate to 28.4. The same holds true with physical crit.

    The only real way to know whether a certain piece of gear is going to increase your DPS is to equip it and compare relative values of tooltip damage, CP, and PC.

    I'd recommend picking a skill (swift shot in the example below) and find the expected average hit by adding the high end and low end numbers and dividing by 2. This gives you a basis for the rest of your calculations. These auto update and reflect both weapon DPS and AP contribution.

    You can then apply the following formula to find a crit adjusted average attack:

    ((1-PC)*SSAvg)+(PC*(SSA*(1.5+CP)))=CAAvg

    Stats with piece 1 equipped:

    PC: .18
    CP: .05
    Swift Shot Average: 2507

    ((1-.18)*2507)+(.18*(2507*(1.5+.05)))=

    2055.74+699.45=2755.19

    So my CAA for this skill in this build is 2755.19

    Then equip the next item and run the formula again:

    PC: .175
    CP: .04
    SSA: 2536
    (Reflects an AP gain around 30 and an undetermined crit power and physical crit rating loss)

    ((1-.175)*2536)+(.175*(2536*(1.5+.04)))=

    2092.2 + 683.45 = 2775.19

    This change of 30 AP while sacrificing both CP and PC still leads to a DPS gain of ~0.7 percent.

    If nothing else, this shows that conventional wisdom about AP stacking remains valid. For MOST players in MOST specs, AP is where it's at. Additionally, it's already agreed that given the wide availability of PC buffs available and the fact that it scales with Dex already, CP should be next on your list with PC being the least desirable secondary stat bonus.

    Much love.
    Last edited by Mizzium; 01-25-2013 at 06:25 AM.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kedon View Post
    Has anyone tested a high CP gear layout with a Bladedancer build? Because of the very high crit chance during BaSP I'm thinking CP could be particularly effective for that soul.

    Specifically, I've been playing around a bit with a 61 BD/9 SIN/6 RNG crit build and it seems kind of promising for that sort of gear, but truthfully my DPS gear is still too poor to really say yet (been focusing on my tank stuff pretty exclusively and having to mainly make do with leftover random drops).
    Bladedancer has so many AP buffs, Duelist Pose, Fated Blades, etc that it's not worth stacking anything but AP.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mizzium View Post
    The problem with a mathematical approach is that the diminishing returns on crit power and physical crit continuously scale based on the amount of CP/PC you already have. For instance, at 70 crit power, you have a 2.50% bonus to your crits. That works out to (70/2.5)=28. If you add 4 crit power, you'd expect your percentage bonus to increase to 2.64, however it only scales up to 2.60 which changes the exchange rate to 28.4. The same holds true with physical crit.

    The only real way to know whether a certain piece of gear is going to increase your DPS is to equip it and compare relative values of tooltip damage, CP, and PC.

    I'd recommend picking a skill (swift shot in the example below) and find the expected average hit by adding the high end and low end numbers and dividing by 2. This gives you a basis for the rest of your calculations. These auto update and reflect both weapon DPS and AP contribution.

    You can then apply the following formula to find a crit adjusted average attack:

    ((1-PC)*SSAvg)+(PC*(SSA*(1.5+CP)))=CAAvg

    Stats with piece 1 equipped:

    PC: .18
    CP: .05
    Swift Shot Average: 2507

    ((1-.18)*2507)+(.18*(2507*(1.5+.05)))=

    2055.74+699.45=2755.19

    So my CAA for this skill in this build is 2755.19

    Then equip the next item and run the formula again:

    PC: .175
    CP: .04
    SSA: 2536
    (Reflects an AP gain around 30 and an undetermined crit power and physical crit rating loss)

    ((1-.175)*2536)+(.175*(2536*(1.5+.04)))=

    2092.2 + 683.45 = 2775.19

    This change of 30 AP while sacrificing both CP and PC still leads to a DPS gain of ~0.7 percent.

    If nothing else, this shows that conventional wisdom about AP stacking remains valid. For MOST players in MOST specs, AP is where it's at. Additionally, it's already agreed that given the wide availability of PC buffs available and the fact that it scales with Dex already, CP should be next on your list with PC being the least desirable secondary stat bonus.

    Much love.
    Thanks Mizzium, thats very informative, and helps support my own beliefs about AP.....Im a big fan for most of our rogue builds with AP.

    I do use the drop gear, but still load in AP where possible.....since my 2 main builds are Bard and Tact.

  11. #11
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    I did a little more research to give you an idea of how much better AP is.

    Between 10 and 13% base crit chance (First tier expert gear level) 127 crit rating seems to be about a 1% chance.

    In order to see the same gains as 30 AP, you need to increase your crit chance by 2.3%, or your rating by ~292 points (As stated in my previous post, exact numbers are unavailable due to the unknown diminishing returns formula.)

    At relatively low levels (<250) crit power seems to be close to 1% bonus per 28 rating.

    In order to see the same gains as 30 AP, you must increase your crit power rating by 8.2%. This equates to a rating increase of ~230 (See above disclaimer)

    This gives an approximate weighting of:

    1 AP : 7.67 CP : 9.733 PC

    Trion made clear their desire to take some of the randomness out of the game and this stat weighting shows one way they accomplished this.

    If anyone is raid geared currently, I'd be interested to see your numbers so I could work some more spreadsheets.

    Thanks.

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    Rift Disciple Flossil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mizzium View Post




    1 AP : 7.67 CP : 9.733 PC

    Trion made clear their desire to take some of the randomness out of the game and this stat weighting shows one way they accomplished this.

    If anyone is raid geared currently, I'd be interested to see your numbers so I could work some more spreadsheets.

    Thanks.
    I hope every rogue follows this so I look like a god in any raid I go to.
    Last edited by Flossil; 01-27-2013 at 10:25 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Flossil View Post
    I hope every rogue follows this so I look like a god in any raid I go to.
    Your implication is that the only way you will look good is if other rogues gear completely wrong. That is probably true, since good players don't need to surround themselves with bads to appear better.

    However, he's right about CP vs AP, so your statement is doubly wrong.

  14. #14
    Rift Disciple Flossil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dunharrow View Post
    Your implication is that the only way you will look good is if other rogues gear completely wrong. That is probably true, since good players don't need to surround themselves with bads to appear better.

    However, he's right about CP vs AP, so your statement is doubly wrong.
    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...U3JxRlE#gid=20

    ^Has a better reputation and more up to date math than you dunsparrow. And it's not even close to being a complete or entirely founded product. You haven't posted a guide in several Tier releases that isn't directly ripped from elsewhere and you're behind the times on actual theorycrafting. You rely on a reputation that is far tarnished and all I see now is a 3/4 rogue with bad parses and improper gear itemization. Regardless of the lack of actual pinpoint accurate numbers for stat weights in the community at the moment, an hour on a dummy can show you the benefits of CP for most builds in a .7 : 1AP ratio. That's on the low end of things as well. With a proper WG:PC rotation in an end game guild with competent organization AP becomes even less of a cornerstone to stack.

  15. #15
    RIFT Fan Site Operator Dunharrow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flossil View Post
    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...U3JxRlE#gid=20

    ^Has a better reputation and more up to date math than you dunsparrow. And it's not even close to being a complete or entirely founded product. You haven't posted a guide in several Tier releases that isn't directly ripped from elsewhere and you're behind the times on actual theorycrafting. You rely on a reputation that is far tarnished and all I see now is a 3/4 rogue with bad parses and improper gear itemization. Regardless of the lack of actual pinpoint accurate numbers for stat weights in the community at the moment, an hour on a dummy can show you the benefits of CP for most builds in a .7 : 1AP ratio. That's on the low end of things as well. With a proper WG:PC rotation in an end game guild with competent organization AP becomes even less of a cornerstone to stack.
    Really? Exactly how up-to-date is my math? You have no idea. Since I agree with ~.7:1 CP:AP (it depends on spec, which don't even seem to realize), I'm not sure how you can claim I'm wrong. As the person you quoted said, AP trashes CP. Obviously you agree, despite insulting him (and now me).

    As for ripping things from others, put up or shut up. Show me anything I've stolen from anyone. Please, post it here for everyone to see. I know you won't do it, because you're full of it. Every time this creeps up, I call the liar out and they can't come up with a thing. You will be the same. Immature haters can't face the fact that I run a successful website, despite their strong hatred of how right I am all the time.

    Same with parses. I have no idea who you are (you've been playing the game less than a year) but I doubt you've seen a parse of mine in Storm Legion, since we don't post parses (although that will change soon, get your microscope ready, cyber-stalker).

    Neither Wild Growth, nor Power Core have any bearing on the CP:AP ratio, so you're wrong again. There are raid buffs/debuffs which increase the value of CP (Motif, Lethal Poison, etc.) but those are essentially static buffs and are included in the current CP:AP calculations on the site that you linked.

    In toto, you are spiteful and have very little idea what you're talking about.
    Last edited by Dunharrow; 01-28-2013 at 12:56 AM.

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