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Thread: Necrotic bolt and Empyrean Ray bugged

  1. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zaros View Post
    I disagree. While there's some healing that's obviously borked, none of it is as bad as damage. There's still the bad DPS who run around crying that healers tank 10 people at once, but those people always exist, and that simply isn't the case. I have hardly any trouble at all dropping most healers, solo, in a number of specs.
    Then they're team is pretty bad. Its that simple. With a competent team, they will have an additional 35-50% DR plus about 10-20K HPS. There isn't a spec out there that can drop that, certainly not solo, and in most cases not without 5-6 DPSers spike bursting.


    "If you ever die to a Tact, a Tempest, or an Inq, you're bad."?
    Sorry, I'm gonna have to disagree again on that one.
    You are in a bad spec, in a bad gear setup, or on a bad team. Quite simple it takes multiple players timing their burst spikes to kill anyone in a good spec, in a good gear setup, and on a good team. A healer on a good team can take 3 concurrent Tact/NB spikes, live, and be at full health within a second or two. Chloro+Defiler+Senti+Warden+Bard is a very very hard combo to crack.

    The Defiler is link swapping and burst healing focuses, the bard is generating a rather decent instantaneous heal that will almost always slip in between parts of the burst + give a 5% DR. The warden is splashing around a lot heals and providing an additional 2% DR. The Chloro is splashing an absolutely insane amount of smart healing. And the Senti/Senti-Puri is burst healing focus targets for an insane amount. It simply isn't possible to easily kill any of them without a lot of concerted effort, esp if they know how to peel.

    Sorry, healing/mitigation is >>>> than burst currently.

  2. #47
    Ascendant Kyera's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Durango View Post
    Chloro+Defiler+Senti+Warden+Bard is a very very hard combo to crack.

    [...]

    Sorry, healing/mitigation is >>>> than burst currently.
    Yes, I would wager that five healers unharassed in optimal specs playing assorted roles with no slip-ups could keep targets alive through three Tac/NB. How does this work out when Defiler, Chloro, and Bard healing get "fixed", or someone does something smart?
    Last edited by Kyera; 01-14-2013 at 08:10 AM.
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  3. #48
    Ascendant Kyera's Avatar
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    Seems legit.

    Did it one-shot him? No, of course not, since he's playing a hybrid spec with defensive buffs and mitigation above the average.

    It still did enough to take him from the 58% or so he was at when training me with Team Awesome down to dead in a CD. Wonder what it would have been with DM/Primer Amp/Core/Remote...
    Last edited by Kyera; 01-14-2013 at 03:50 PM.
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  4. #49
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    Gz, you had 2 lucky crits!

    But really, that's no different than any Inqui or Tempest critting you to death...
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  5. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Terrordar View Post
    Gz, you had 2 lucky crits!

    But really, that's no different than any Inqui or Tempest critting you to death...
    http://forums.riftgame.com/rift-gene...ml#post4114646

  6. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Terrordar View Post
    Gz, you had 2 lucky crits!

    But really, that's no different than any Inqui or Tempest critting you to death...
    I don't get your point.
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  7. #52
    RIFT Fan Site Operator Dunharrow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shoggoth1890 View Post
    Crappy gear: As mentioned gear is normalized. There are slight variations in the normalization but not enough to turn "able to be 2 shot" into "impossible to be 2 shot"
    You obviously don't know how bolstering works.

    First, it ignores your seal, trinket, crystal and core (not the essences, but the core itself). Having the CQ trinket, endurance seal, etc gives you a substantial health boost.

    Next its a small matter to enchant your pvp gear to get 150 endurance, and you could boost that to 200+ extra endurance if you were so inclined.

    Finally, Freelancer gear has about 50 more endurance than Mercenary gear, and Warlord gear has 50 more than that.

    All of these gains are over and above what you get from bolstering. So while bolstering does turn a scrub in green pve gear into something approaching a worthy opponent, it does not make everyone the same. Not even close.
    Last edited by Dunharrow; 01-15-2013 at 06:44 AM.

  8. #53
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    So the verdict here is that Tact is fine?

    Lets move on then.
    New round up of some high rank matches
    Chun-Li*E.Honda*Evil Ryu
    Abel*Ibuki*Dhalsim
    Gouken*Zangief*Ryu

  9. #54
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    Alright, here's my point of view on this.

    I definitely do not enjoy getting killed by Nyrsyrs or Tempest burst, and I would not enjoy getting killed by some bolts flying around. BUT. Current PVP needs burst DPS. There are specs that provide good sustained damage as well as specs that provide good burst damage. A good PVP raid composition has a variety of the two to effectively kill enemy players and healers.
    Now I know, in some BGs you don't really have heal, but that's just as random as having 5 healers. It happens, but it's not really the optimal BG case.
    In an average BG with average healers that know how to use their specs you will need burst DPS up to a certain degree. And Inqui, Tempest as well as Tact/NB (and to a certain degree Pyro) are specs that provide just that burst.

    While I could do the same DPS with a Tact/MM compared to a Tact/NB (and I mean in the actual sense of DPS) over a certain amount of time, the sustained damage provided by the Tact/MM is easily healed away while you can burst down some targets with the other build. This is not granted, as someone can throw CDs and so on, but the chance to kill is higher.

    Now to the part that really has no balance in this spec - sustained damage versus burst damage. While Inqui has good burst from Nyrsyrs, it also has good sustained damage. Tact/NB is almost solely relying on that burst, with little sustained damage.

    In the current state between healing and damage, those specs are in fact needed. I don't see any need to nerf them NOW, as soon as certain double dipping healing specs are fixed I do not see any reason why they should stay that way though.

    Other than that... this spec is just as useful as any other in a specific situation and is, in my opinion, only in need for a slight adjustion comparing finisher damage to builder damage, and by no means is it overpowered in any way.

    So the verdict here is that Tact is fine?

    Lets move on then.
    You could've posted before I started writing :P
    Last edited by Terrordar; 01-15-2013 at 12:56 PM.
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  10. #55
    Ascendant Kyera's Avatar
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    Kill switches for everbody!

    You get a kill switch!

    You get a kill switch!

    You get a kill switch!

    Everyone gets a kill switch!
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  11. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kyera View Post
    Kill switches for everbody!

    You get a kill switch!

    You get a kill switch!

    You get a kill switch!

    Everyone gets a kill switch!
    But his is better.... =(
    So long, and thanks for all the fish~

  12. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dunharrow View Post
    All of these gains are over and above what you get from bolstering. So while bolstering does turn a scrub in green pve gear into something approaching a worthy opponent, it does not make everyone the same. Not even close.
    Never said it made everyone the same. On my fresh 60s I actually wear old raid gear rather than level 60 PvE gear since it gets replaced anyway while giving me the crystal bonus (though randomly time to time the bonus stops working for a bit for no apparent reason, even outside PvP).

    More of a matter of what I consider a person meaning when they say crappy gear. To me crappy gear refers to someone wearing gear well below what is available to them. Since we're discussing whether or not someone can be 2 shot and since even low prestige 60s can be placed in fights with top prestige 60s, I decided to address gear replacement since the only gear I would qualify as crappy is stuff that would get replaced anyway. As you said bolstering brings people to something resembling a worthy opponent, and as such should not be cast off into the "they shouldn't even be here so they don't count" group when it comes to discussions about balance and what can be done against other players.

    Also my statement was in regard to going from one extreme of "relative ease of 2 shots" to "basically impossible to 2 shot" simply via gear.

    Naked people don't count for sure though since technically they had no gear for bolstering to replace and as such get no bolstered stats. Those people are just plain idiots or jerks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Durango View Post
    Given a proper team structure and play, it is insanely difficult to kill a healer on a competent team. You are looking at base DR on the order of 75-80% and then on top of that you are looking at 35+% additional mitigation via defiler or warlord. Incoming HPS on a focus target is well above 10k currently (and in many cases approaching 20K+) between targeted heals, smart AoE heals, shields, and delayed heals. I've been in many matches where both sides have Chloros, Defilers, Sent/Puris, wardens and Bards/Bard-Tacts with good and competent DPS on both sides along with proper tank support where initial engagement TTK(and we're talking first kill here) is measured in minutes.

    Any reductions in current levels of burst must also be done in conjunction with significant reductions in healing and mitigation or else even bad team will have TTL measured in minutes and good teams will have TTL measured in matches. Right now the only way to kill someone on a competent team is multiple people doing timed combined bursts, anything else just tickles.
    Top defiler link is 30% and warlord is 15%, and they can only have it up on 1 person at a time. Defiler can switch it freely being oGCD though. He can have lesser links on other allies, but these will also block a quick switch as the defiler would have to cancel the lesser link before giving said person the top link.

    Where are your archon and dom? Sounds like the fights you are referring to are big zerg vs zerg, so the archon would be able to buff most of the team and also be able to spam purge a bunch of people, including the defiler links (can purge either end to get rid of it). They'd just have to be careful because they'd eventually start triggering FGs for the defiler if they keep spamming after people have been stripped.

    Dom is one of the biggest pains for a healer (or any caster really) when played well. Arresting presence someone in the zerg, and then either use a cast time spell, dropping AP just before the cast completes and reapplying it right after, or deactivate it just before doing an instant, reactivating it as soon as the GCD allows it. AP can be maintained for a looong time when managed right. If you don't want to risk anything but instants have the dom keep toggling it on every 1s without any charge builders in between... effectively an interrupt with a 1s CD. And don't forget to MB the zerg, not only doing great damage but draining the casters of their mana as long as you debuffed them with cleanse fodder prior.

    Or how about having some sabs? Not for their bugged damage but for a full 8s silence placed at critical spots. Toss an entangling trap at them to keep em from moving out of it if the situation requires. At the very least you can force the casters to move into an unfavorable position or use up their break free. If you have multiple sabs you can also create a very large dead zone for 8s or create back to back dead zones at a choke point.

    Virtually all of your posts are actually saying "under ideal situations it's almost impossible to 2 shot someone". With that sentiment I agree, but to make the claim that anything less than ideal qualifies as crappy and as such should not be touched by cherry stained hands is something I do not agree with.

    Healing needs to be brought down from its current state yes, but its current state is bugged for most specs. Prior to the bug it was much more reasonable and, depending on what burst might get changed to in the future, the fixed healing might not need adjustment.

  13. #58
    RIFT Fan Site Operator Dunharrow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kyera View Post
    Kill switches for everbody!

    You get a kill switch!

    You get a kill switch!

    You get a kill switch!

    Everyone gets a kill switch!
    What are you on about?

    The issue is damage or healing as a percentage of health. Right now, AOE heals can go for 25% or more of someone's health, and single target heals can go for 100% of someone's health.

    Without so-called "kill switches" (and they really aren't, but whatever) then you would have no deaths at all. In the current game state, attrition deaths are only possible in the complete absence of healers. In games where both teams have active, competent healers, deaths only come from burst.

    Essentially, both damage and healing are overpowered right now. Both are too high in relation to health pools, and whining about damage while ignoring healing makes you appear short-sighted, at best.
    • PvP can always be good if healing is too weak. In fact, great PvP can be had without any healers at all. Survival becomes about managing your health and potions and cooldowns.
    • PvP can not be good if healing is too strong. If healers can easily outheal damage, then no one dies, and battles become stupid. PvP becomes about who has mana drain or who can lure a DPS behind a pillar.

    If we wanted good PvP, then the hardest-hitting crit burst combos/abilities would go for no more than ~25% of a player's health, and the biggest ST heals would go for a bit less.

    In the current environment, that would translate to about 4k damage crits on Empyrean Ray (instead of 12k+) and 3k ST heals. AOE heals would go for 1k and bigger AOE heals would be extremely mana intensive.

    Why do this? Because it would put the onus of survivability on the individual player, not the healer. A healer couldn't stop someone from being killed (without a CD), only delay it, but a player also couldn't be burst down in 1 second with a bit of focus fire like they can now.

    This would give everyone time to react to things that were happening in the game and attrition would become a major factor in battles. Players being focused would have time to react by getting out of harm's way, and healers would have time to react and help out with cast time heals.

    I've seen this work in a game. The game has not been overly successful, but the PvP is a shining case of Doing It Right. Battles are never over in seconds, but they also never drag on for minutes. Health matters. And it should.
    Last edited by Dunharrow; 01-16-2013 at 05:31 AM.

  14. #59
    Ascendant Kyera's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dunharrow View Post
    What are you on about?
    I'm on about people thinking it's okay to drop 12k-15k in a GCD in PvP combat and using the fact that other classes have silly toy dumps as justification.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dunharrow View Post
    In games where both teams have active, competent healers, deaths only come from burst.
    The big issue is when this burst comes almost entirely from a single player in the blink of an eye. Aside from bugged Defiler healing, we don't have anything comparable outside of "oh [expletive]" healing buttons like Essence Surge, which I firmly believe should be a thing. If you don't feel that way, that's fine -- we clearly have differing philosophies on where the balance paradigm should lie.

    Personally I'm a firm believer in the "healing should be able to keep people from dying" and "damage contribution from a single player should be outpaced by healing contribution from a single player, all other things equal" (owing to the innate healer-to-non-healer ratios we always experience). This comes with the caveat that a good train should be able to outmatch the healer (not the case with bugged Defiler) and that players should still be required to put an effort into keeping themselves alive (which I feel is still the case).

    Frankly, even when we had derpy easymode permabubble healers, I wasn't comfortable with the one-shot burst potential going around, because that leads to the "both sides are too strong" thing you talk about. When Defiler gets fixed, I think dps is in the ballpark of where it needs to be, with the exception of people doing 50-70% of someone's health by themselves in a 1 GCD window. ymmv.

    I don't see ST healing anywhere near the ballpark of what I'm putting out for burst w/ this spec fwiw, though I do see stuff that's comparable to the ST dps I put out in other specs (especially from higher sustained builds). All I need half the time is one or two other dps on the train to burn most targets down through the typical healing throughput.
    Last edited by Kyera; 01-16-2013 at 11:14 AM.
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  15. #60
    Ascendant Valnak's Avatar
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    Dunsparrow says: "Don't nerf me bro!"

    Defending this is basically the same as defending Nysyr's, except you can actually stop Nysyr's from killing you. Ray + Nec Bolt is unstoppable.

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