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Thread: AP vs Crit Power in general

  1. #1
    Soulwalker
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    Default AP vs Crit Power in general

    I have seen several threads discussing stat values for rogues. I have also seen a few well done spreadsheets that have been posted on the rogue forums.

    The general difference I have noticed is the value of AP vs. Crit Power.

    While I realize, these values may differ based on specific specs, I am wondering generally which way to lean for the best DPS effect for various DPS specs or not considering a specific spec?

    Take, for example, the seals:

    Insidious Tactical Advantage - 88 Dex, 12 CP
    Keen Tactical Advantage - 88 Dex, 7 AP

    From the spreadsheets I have seen, when calculating seals with AP vs CP, the score difference is marginal and the veridict of which is better seems to always be split.

    Anyone have knowledge on which is the default preference not considering spec? AP or CP?

    Thanks for all of the number crunching on the forums. It is very appreciated!
    Last edited by Bigf00t; 12-24-2012 at 02:36 AM.

  2. #2
    Ascendant Mayi's Avatar
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    I'd go with ap for your seal and the raid crafted bow. Generalizing between the two stat's for each type of build I'd say:

    Ranged builds: Crit power items are a bit more valuable then ap items. AP is still better, but you get more crit power then ap in general on equivalent items.
    Melee builds: The value of crit power and ap is close, the quality of the item matters when making the decision.
    Barding: Attack power is far more valuable then crit power.

    Since you play all three roles ap is better just because it's always a good stat, where for barding crit power isn't very good at all. I choose between crit power and ap on dropped pieces that can be easily swopped out but will never want to make two bows or seals, so if you're like me go for the one that's the better is more situations.
    Last edited by Mayi; 12-24-2012 at 05:43 AM.
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  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mayi View Post
    I'd go with ap for your seal and the raid crafted bow. Generalizing between the two stat's for each type of build I'd say:

    Ranged builds: Crit power items are a bit more valuable then ap items. AP is still better, but you get more crit power then ap in general on equivalent items.
    Melee builds: The value of crit power and ap is close, the quality of the item matters when making the decision.
    Barding: Attack power is far more valuable then crit power.

    Since you play all three roles ap is better just because it's always a good stat, where for barding crit power isn't very good at all. I choose between crit power and ap on dropped pieces that can be easily swopped out but will never want to make two bows or seals, so if you're like me go for the one that's the better is more situations.
    Mayi,

    That is exactly the info I was looking for and what I estimated the answers were going to be. Thanks for spelling it out!

    What is the raid crafted bow? Bow of Twisted souls?

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    RIFT Fan Site Operator Dunharrow's Avatar
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    No one would argue against AP > CP. The issue is that crit power comes in bigger doses than AP in most cases.

    So the question is not if AP is better, its a question of how much better AP is. That depends on your spec and gear. In general, I look at CP being better if I can get 50% more, or a 3:2 ratio.

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    Ascendant Mayi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bigf00t View Post
    Mayi,

    That is exactly the info I was looking for and what I estimated the answers were going to be. Thanks for spelling it out!

    What is the raid crafted bow? Bow of Twisted souls?
    Yea, I'm just waiting for our weaponsmith with the recipe to get back from Christmas vacation to make me mine. I'm going with the dex & ap augment.
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    I am going to figure the answer to the following question is NO.

    Have you seen any gear that has more Strength than Dexterity that would make it preferable for a rogue at 60 already considering it has AP or Crit Power as the other stat?

    What would the stat weight be for Dex and Str if AP=1? (basing this on Mayi's AP and CP weights)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bigf00t View Post
    I am going to figure the answer to the following question is NO.

    Have you seen any gear that has more Strength than Dexterity that would make it preferable for a rogue at 60 already considering it has AP or Crit Power as the other stat?

    What would the stat weight be for Dex and Str if AP=1? (basing this on Mayi's AP and CP weights)
    Well if you account for the 5% increase to dex and str u get from a bard while raiding the stat values would be
    Dex ~ .93
    Str ~ .40

  8. #8
    Soulwalker
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    Default AP vs dex/ap augment

    so for a bard would the stellar accurate augment be better then the stellar keen augment? or would you rather have more dex for the other bonuses you get from it? ive been looking all around for answers on what would be best for barding but i can only find older posts.

    I have an AoE dps spec, a single target dps spec, and a bard spec but bard is my main. and for the dps specs is there a certain point to get to phys crit before worrying about more AP or even get some crit power gear?

    i remember there was a certain % of phys crit to get to before goin for a dif stat, just wasnt sure if there is a certain mark for it anymore. any info would be greatly appreciated. thanks

  9. #9
    Ascendant Mayi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dingleduck View Post
    so for a bard would the stellar accurate augment be better then the stellar keen augment? or would you rather have more dex for the other bonuses you get from it? ive been looking all around for answers on what would be best for barding but i can only find older posts.
    As a bard I would use the lessers that give the most AP. Crit power is really, really bad for bards and crit too. I think the reason is raid buffs, a ranged build benefits from lethal poison, the bard crit buff, the archon crit buff and the tempest crit buff. For barding (in regards to healing) you only get the bard and archon crit buffs. Since damage isn't tied to healing anymore you can crit with the damage portion of cadence and not crit with the heal portion of cadence (or vice versa), same goes for restorative engine so lethal poison does nothing for bard healing. I think in raids I'm only at 17% or so crit rate for my healing as a bard compared to 40% for my damage in my 40-36 ranged build.

    I'd never wear an item with +crit on it either... well almost never. If the dagger dropped in the 10 man and everyone else had it I'd take it but would rather get a dagger with +ap on it first. Weapon dps matters more then the stats in general but I'd hope someone else would take it so I could get a better drop later on. I'd also unequip the dagger when playing a ranged build.

    Crit scales so poorly it's never worth it. If I exchanged all my ap and crit power items for crit items instead I think I'd only end up with about an extra 600 crit, which translates into a 5% extra crit rate. Compare that to the hundreds of extra dps I'm doing from all the AP I'm getting from those items. Definitely not worth it. There are no exceptions where crit is good that I've seen in any build.

    I think the devs wanted to never have an issue with players hitting the crit cap so they made it virtually unattainable. We are in the first tier of raiding at 60 afterall, there might be another 3-4 tiers at 60 later on in the game so they had to give room for our crit to go up and not hit the cap. Maybe later crit might be worth it when we're in the 3rd tier of raiding and have super high ap and crit power ... but I doubt it.
    Last edited by Mayi; 12-25-2012 at 08:43 PM.
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    Champion minipara's Avatar
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    Get an AP set AND a CP set
    Last edited by minipara; 12-25-2012 at 11:21 PM.

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    for bard i would agree ap is better over crit, the amount of crit you will naturally have in raid is usually enough to maintain our procced buffs. For dps tact (41tact/35mm or similar, where torrents are primary method of attack) I actually stack alot of crit, this allows me to never be starved in my rotations (more mobs=more energy return, due to more crits in the spread). it really is dependant on the spec you are playing atm.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dunharrow View Post
    No one would argue against AP > CP. The issue is that crit power comes in bigger doses than AP in most cases.

    So the question is not if AP is better, its a question of how much better AP is. That depends on your spec and gear. In general, I look at CP being better if I can get 50% more, or a 3:2 ratio.
    Sorry to get way off topic but..... When u updating ur website????????

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    Ascendant Mayi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mirimon View Post
    for bard i would agree ap is better over crit, the amount of crit you will naturally have in raid is usually enough to maintain our procced buffs. For dps tact (41tact/35mm or similar, where torrents are primary method of attack) I actually stack alot of crit, this allows me to never be starved in my rotations (more mobs=more energy return, due to more crits in the spread). it really is dependant on the spec you are playing atm.
    There's an internal cooldown on the energy return in tactician of 2 seconds. If you're hitting multiple mobs you'll crit every 2 seconds whether your crit is at 8% or 60%. There's no need to stack crit for energy return.
    Last edited by Mayi; 12-26-2012 at 05:06 PM.
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    Ascendant Mirimon's Avatar
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    actually, iv'e seen, despite what the tool tip says and what we know should be truth, that if critting multiple targets at the same time occurs I receive multiple benefit from the talent. the testing will sho that solo, the full spam rotation will starve out in 5-6 rotations, while engaging 6+ mobs or more, the rotation will in fact not starve, and actually I get back far more energy per rotation than I have spent on a 4 stacked torrent. Chalk this one up to a bug, Idk, but because of these findings, my stacking crit has proven fruitful, for now. that's how I can parse this spec, in that rotation, for 20-30 minutes with no gap waiting for energy, solo, on 10+ mobs racking up nearly 70k constant aoe dps. wouldn't be the first time tool tips and the way things are supposed to work vs what actually happens do not match. IMO.. they might as well just leave it this way, aoe spam on st= starvation, aoe spam on multiple targets=nominal aoe function.

  15. #15
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    Idk, I always use the currative core to keep my energy level normal, this is the only thing that works since heals and damage have a seperate chance to proc the energy regen.

    Other than that I can't really agree with your statement, Mirimon. Without the core I tend to get starved rather fast.
    Last edited by Terrordar; 12-26-2012 at 07:27 PM.
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