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Thread: Stealth concerning PvP

  1. #1
    Shadowlander
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    Default Stealth concerning PvP

    Would anyone be opposed to stealthed players being ignored by AOEs that require targets? Things like:
    • Fan Out
    • Sentry Battery
    • Crossfire
    • Storm Torrent

    In addition I think that Slip Away should stop channels that are targeting the player like:
    • Strafe
    • Lightning Torrent

    Especially considering that Assassin damage was lowered back down in PvP, I think that it's main survivability mechanic shouldn't be trivialized by a few skills.

    I understand that ground target abilities and torrents and whatnot are natural counters to stealth but some other abilities don't seem like they should hit players who are in stealth.

    I like to play specs that are fun, not the most popular or considered the most effective, and 61 assassin is one of them... as a glass cannon stealth is my main crutch to stay standing and when I slip away at 50% and die to Storm Torrent anyway, it sucks (hard).

    Posting this to get some serious opinions as to why this is a good or bad idea, not so people can troll about how "op" rogues are in PvP.

  2. #2
    RIFT Guide Writer Muspel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bursurkin View Post
    Would anyone be opposed to stealthed players being ignored by AOEs that require targets?
    Yes. There should be reasonably common counters to stealth, given how powerful it is. Also, given that stealth is just you hiding, it wouldn't make sense for it to make you immune to AoE.

    (Also also, Crossfire does not require a target.)

  3. #3
    Ascendant Violacea's Avatar
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    Lots of aoe's already don't knock sin out of stealth, always thought it was a bug tbh.

    Assassin damage is fine, we don't need stealthing improved as a reaction to any recent patches to assassin. People seem to forget just a few days before the last patch, a couple of the sin abilities the recent one toned down in PvP were increased. Probably voids it out anyway.

    It seems paradoxical to me you suggest this is the biggest issue for a 61sin. If any spec, sin specs with hidden veil can face the adversity of damage flying everywhere - once a minute. 15s is enough to usually attack the intended target or bail for safety. It's any other rogue who uses stuff like the 4pt NB stealth or sin specs not deep enough for hidden veil, that really have a rough time stealth around efficiently sometimes.

    I think stealth is fine, but there is a inconsistency about what breaks it. I wouldn't be surprised if abilities that can't 'proc' things don't trigger hidden veil. I've seen torrets, the warrior lightning gun, the Guardian Phase trigger PBAOE - all not knock me out of stealth. But then again, stuff like Tactician cores do. I might be wrong on torrents, but I know the other two I listed don't break my sins stealth. There should just be consistency to what breaks stealth. It is a hard call, I'm under the impression that it should be kept simple. Damage breaks stealth - period. Hidden Veil is there to deal with that.

    The channeling part I agree on. I think slip away should cancel/interrupt on-going channels on the target. Slip Away should pretty much work like a LoS would for active hitting abilities, imho. Not to be confused with creating a LoS so that regular aoes miss the assassin. But the slip away should have a LoS effect on channeled/casted effects. It might already have that on casted effects tbh.

    I think if anything is done to assassin, especially regarding pvp, leaping plunge needs a useful CC tied into it. Sin would be golden then.
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  4. #4
    Shadowlander
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    Quote Originally Posted by Muspel View Post
    Yes. There should be reasonably common counters to stealth, given how powerful it is. Also, given that stealth is just you hiding, it wouldn't make sense for it to make you immune to AoE.

    (Also also, Crossfire does not require a target.)
    My bad on the Crossfire. It would make even less sense for me while hiding to be aimed at and shot by someone's fan out, wouldn't it? I said some not all AOEs. Stuff that hits a general area like torrents and firestorm make sense, but things like fan out and storm torrent that aim for a certain number of people and shoot them, I don't think should "aim" for people who are in hiding.

    Quote Originally Posted by Violacea View Post
    Lots of aoe's already don't knock sin out of stealth, always thought it was a bug tbh.

    Assassin damage is fine, we don't need stealthing improved as a reaction to any recent patches to assassin. People seem to forget just a few days before the last patch, a couple of the sin abilities the recent one toned down in PvP were increased. Probably voids it out anyway.

    It seems paradoxical to me you suggest this is the biggest issue for a 61sin. If any spec, sin specs with hidden veil can face the adversity of damage flying everywhere - once a minute. 15s is enough to usually attack the intended target or bail for safety. It's any other rogue who uses stuff like the 4pt NB stealth or sin specs not deep enough for hidden veil, that really have a rough time stealth around efficiently sometimes.

    I think stealth is fine, but there is a inconsistency about what breaks it. I wouldn't be surprised if abilities that can't 'proc' things don't trigger hidden veil. I've seen torrets, the warrior lightning gun, the Guardian Phase trigger PBAOE - all not knock me out of stealth. But then again, stuff like Tactician cores do. I might be wrong on torrents, but I know the other two I listed don't break my sins stealth. There should just be consistency to what breaks stealth. It is a hard call, I'm under the impression that it should be kept simple. Damage breaks stealth - period. Hidden Veil is there to deal with that.

    The channeling part I agree on. I think slip away should cancel/interrupt on-going channels on the target. Slip Away should pretty much work like a LoS would for active hitting abilities, imho. Not to be confused with creating a LoS so that regular aoes miss the assassin. But the slip away should have a LoS effect on channeled/casted effects. It might already have that on casted effects tbh.

    I think if anything is done to assassin, especially regarding pvp, leaping plunge needs a useful CC tied into it. Sin would be golden then.
    My point on the first part is like this: fan out is a bunch of arrows or whatever you shoot that aim for your target and people around them, isn't it strange that it aims for people in stealth? The other stuff just seemed similar although since Crossfire doesn't require a target it makes more sense that it hits people in stealth. I actually never had too much of a problem sticking on people since I like to run around, I don't buy twilight force when I do NB/RS and whatnot. My 61 Sin spec is 61/10/5 Sin/MM/Riftstalker so I just run faster than people rather than trying to slow them down.

  5. #5
    Ascendant Violacea's Avatar
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    I don't think it is odd something like fanout hits stealth people. Stealth != aoe immunity. Fanout = Enemy PBAOE.

    If you are in range of the aoe it hits you, just like any other proper functioning aoe would. My logic on it.
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  6. #6
    Shadowlander
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    Quote Originally Posted by Violacea View Post
    I don't think it is odd something like fanout hits stealth people. Stealth != aoe immunity. Fanout = Enemy PBAOE.

    If you are in range of the aoe it hits you, just like any other proper functioning aoe would. My logic on it.
    Maybe stuff like fan out shouldn't require a target to be cast then.

  7. #7
    Ascendant Galibier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Muspel View Post
    Yes. There should be reasonably common counters to stealth, given how powerful it is. Also, given that stealth is just you hiding, it wouldn't make sense for it to make you immune to AoE.

    (Also also, Crossfire does not require a target.)
    I do think it lame that an AoE that does not require a target can just be spammed but yeah, if you walk in front of a machine gun that is aimed at your buddy, you should take the hit. I admit I do it when I run Tac or Sabo in PvP and when I ran Cleric and had Inquis in my build. Made me feel a little dirty too because it was so damn lame.
    Last edited by Galibier; 12-20-2012 at 08:03 PM.
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  8. #8
    Ascendant Violacea's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bursurkin View Post
    Maybe stuff like fan out shouldn't require a target to be cast then.
    Okay....so how would you use an enemy PBAOE without an enemy? Would fan out be a spammable cone effect? A chainable aoe like Rain of Arrows? I don't see a reason to alter the mechanics to fan out. Nothing to gain, nothing would change.
    Last edited by Violacea; 12-20-2012 at 08:04 PM.
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  9. #9
    Shadowlander
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    Quote Originally Posted by Violacea View Post
    Okay....so how would you use an enemy PBAOE without an enemy? Would fan out be a spammable cone effect? A chainable aoe like Rain of Arrows? I don't see a reason to alter the mechanics to fan out. Nothing to gain, nothing would change.
    That's my point. Since it's an enemy PBAOE the spread doesn't really make sense that it hits stealthed people.

    Although this is minor compared to the stealthing at 50% and still dying to warrior storm torrents WITH
    Hidden Veil up.

  10. #10
    Ascendant Violacea's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bursurkin View Post
    That's my point. Since it's an enemy PBAOE the spread doesn't really make sense that it hits stealthed people.

    Although this is minor compared to the stealthing at 50% and still dying to warrior storm torrents WITH
    Hidden Veil up.
    Why does an enemy PBAOE not make sense to hit nearby stealth players in range? That would make stealth an aoe immune ability. GTAOEs work the same - if you are in range of it, you get knocked out. Under this logic, a GTAOE shouldn't hit people either. all the GT, PB and that junk just designates where the Area of Effect originates from. Nothing about stealth entails avoiding aoes.

    If you are in range of a self PB aoe, one that generates from a player, you get hit if you are in range of the area of effect.

    If you are in range of a enemy PB aoe, one that generates from that enemy, the area of effect is circular based off them and if in range you get hit.

    If you are in range of a GTAOE, one that generates based on a designated spot picked, you get hit if you are in the area of effect.

    This community makes threads every now and then about getting hit by fan-out from behind trees when they are LoSing the person attacking a team mate who isn't out of LoS. It makes no sense. If you are in range of an aoe - it hits you. All these different aoes just have mechanics that differentiate their origin of effect. Nothing in this game is entitled to aoe immunity. I am not sure why people don't get this.

    Let's get hypothetical to make a clear example. Say you had a team mate on your team who could damage you as well. Them being hit by an enemies enemy PBAOE and standing by them and getting hit by that aoe. That would be no different if this team mate who can damage you on your team, casted a self PBAOE and hit you while you were by them. There is no difference. It doesn't matter who/where it comes from, enemy PB, self PB, GT based - if you are in range of an aoe you get hit. Stealth in no way should be an aoe avoid of aoe's that would hit any normal non stealth player.
    Last edited by Violacea; 12-20-2012 at 08:45 PM.
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  11. #11
    Shadowlander
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    While your argument makes sense I must say, that's horse ****.

  12. #12
    Ascendant Violacea's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bursurkin View Post
    While your argument makes sense I must say, that's horse ****.
    Getting hit by fan-out due being next to the target being hit is mechanically no different than eating a self PBAOE from an enemy you are too close to. It's not really an argument, it's an assertion of how the games mechanics work when working as intended. Of course it makes sense.
    Last edited by Violacea; 12-20-2012 at 08:57 PM.
    New round up of some high rank matches
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  13. #13
    RIFT Guide Writer Muspel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bursurkin View Post
    That's my point. Since it's an enemy PBAOE the spread doesn't really make sense that it hits stealthed people.
    Fan Out is "I aim at an enemy, and shoot four arrows in a spread". If someone is invisible standing next to them, it'll hit them.

    Now, you could argue that targeted AoEs like that should prioritize non-stealthed targets over stealthed targets (for instance, with a target cap of 4, if there's four stealthed rogues and five unstealthed people, it should hit the unstealthed ones), but that's a fair amount of programming for a relatively obscure situation.

  14. #14
    Shadowlander
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    Quote Originally Posted by Muspel View Post
    Fan Out is "I aim at an enemy, and shoot four arrows in a spread". If someone is invisible standing next to them, it'll hit them.

    Now, you could argue that targeted AoEs like that should prioritize non-stealthed targets over stealthed targets (for instance, with a target cap of 4, if there's four stealthed rogues and five unstealthed people, it should hit the unstealthed ones), but that's a fair amount of programming for a relatively obscure situation.
    Yeah. That's still pretty small compared to the bigger issue I have where you Slip Away and something like Nysyr's still kills you (because 3 tics > 21k hp).

  15. #15
    Sword of Telara Gynxz's Avatar
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    I agree Fan out should not hit since it it used to, and seems that way still, fire individual projectiles to each target. If that's the case it wouldn't "make sense". The rest are Cone or line so they should all hit.

    Even though Sentry Battery is technically targeted, this is only for a reference point since it hits everything in a line w/o a target. Its like walking on a narrow hallway that has a Turret aiming/firing at the other end and you expecting not to get hit because you are walking slowly. You are not the target, just the one blocking its target.

    Next Argument will be Sab bombs should not hit stealth players around the target?

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