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Thread: Auroral Glancing Rune v Auroral Adamant Rune

  1. #1
    Soulwalker
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    Default Auroral Glancing Rune v Auroral Adamant Rune

    So i was having a discussion with a fellow Rogue tank after our raids had ended on the preferred weapon rune for tanking in FT and EE, i was wondering what the Rogue community thought about this.

    btw if my maths are correct it works out as 114 Deflect = 1.45% Deflect versus 64 Endurance which is
    1560hp with modifiers in 61RS/8RNG/7Bard.

    is there a magic hp number that once you hit, it is prefered to start going dmg mitigation? someone in my guild said *if you can take 3 unmitigated hits in 2gcd's without any big heals you can consider going more mitigation based*

    is there any truth to that? also i know some fights, for example the 3rd boss in EE will clearly favor HP since the vast majority of dmg isnt physical dmg, is there any fights that favor deflect over health?

    feedback is most appriciated!

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    Ascendant Primalthirst's Avatar
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    I would strongly recommend the Endurance, mitigation stats in general are much less effective.
    Nope.

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    Champion of Telara aileen's Avatar
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    Stack endurance as much as you can exbo.
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    Ascendant Mirimon's Avatar
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    you know.. I still say you have to take everything into account.. alot of people claim "HP POOL" is priority, at any cost.. but no matter how you buff it, no matter what you do, once you get it, it doesn't change.. the pool doesn't magically get larger to soak up larger hits.. it pretty much stays where you have it. Mitigation though.. especially with abilities taken into account.. well.. in some cases, 1 hit will not matter so much, simply because you have the health to over it, but in others.. the bigger the hit.. the more hp's worth of dmg you actually mitigate of it.

    I play a different tank spec, and other "tanks" say it's gross, because I am not maximizing my ehp.. but the healers.. ALL of them enjoy the fact that healing me isn't nearly as difficult as other people tanking, simply because I am mitigating soo much more dmg that I don't need severe healing. I think some people are simply getting tunnel vision, and looking for (what in their minds is) an easy path to travel, rather than play a well rounded character.

    but.. when comparing stats.. I would have to ask.. does the gain to ehp outweigh the potential hp's in dmg being mitigated? once you know that, then you can make a better choice.
    Last edited by Mirimon; 12-16-2012 at 07:57 PM.

  5. #5
    RIFT Guide Writer Muspel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mirimon View Post
    you know.. I still say you have to take everything into account.. alot of people claim "HP POOL" is priority, at any cost.. but no matter how you buff it, no matter what you do, once you get it, it doesn't change.. the pool doesn't magically get larger to soak up larger hits.. it pretty much stays where you have it. Mitigation though.. especially with abilities taken into account.. well.. in some cases, 1 hit will not matter so much, simply because you have the health to over it, but in others.. the bigger the hit.. the more hp's worth of dmg you actually mitigate of it.
    Huh?

    It's not a question of how much damage avoidance will mitigate per point, it's a question of which requirement it actually fills.

    And here comes my standard "tanking priorities" explanation. Again.

    As a tank, you have three priorities.
    1. Hold threat. Having a billion health or avoiding every hit is useless if the boss is killing your DPS and healers while ignoring you.
    2. Have enough effective health so that you don't die before your healers can react.
    3. Mitigate enough damage so that you don't die of attrition. (That is, make sure that you don't "bleed out" over a long period of time because incoming DPS is higher than incoming HPS.)

    Priority one is fulfilled by default if you stand in melee range and do your rotation. We can move past it for purposes of this discussion.

    Priority two is the big one. There are plenty of bosses who burst hard, and will smack you around while the healer is moving, covering the raid, dispelling something, or what-have-you. Higher effective health means that healers are increasingly able to let you dangle when you're not at full health, dealing with some of those other important jobs.

    Priority three is trivial. Healers aren't limited by actual healing output, they're limited by where that output goes. Having more mitigation will also give the healer extra time to take care of vital tasks, but unlike effective health, avoidance and deflect are random, and you may not avoid an attack when your healer most needs the time. Even though avoidance gives healers a similar amount of leeway as endurance on average, it's still significantly worse because it's unreliable.

    Tanking is all about stability and consistency. If you're using a build that sacrifices those in favor of RNG benefits that may not benefit you when things go pear-shaped, then you're doing it wrong.

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    Ascendant Mirimon's Avatar
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    nah.. benefits are not rng.. the build is pure % mitigation, which will automatically scale with amount of dmg per hit, mean while.. those stacking end builds. will still, no matter what their gear is, have 2-3k more hp, which in boss terms, is about 1/4 of a auto attack from a boss, if not less. I do grant them the increase to heals coming in, that is a bonus.. but the gain to ehp from such builds really is static, and never changes in terms of getting any better.

    but w/e I will let you play your way, and I shall play mine, and enjoy the praise of healers noting how I am not soo squishy, and much easier to heal, all while wearing only 4 pieces of tanking gear..
    Last edited by Mirimon; 12-17-2012 at 01:47 PM.

  7. #7
    RIFT Guide Writer Muspel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mirimon View Post
    nah.. benefits are not rng.. the build is pure % mitigation, which will automatically scale with amount of dmg per hit, mean while.. those stacking end builds. will still, no matter what their gear is, have 2-3k more hp, which in boss terms, is about 1/4 of a auto attack from a boss, if not less. I do grant them the increase to heals coming in, that is a bonus.. but the gain to ehp from such builds really is static, and never changes in terms of getting any better.
    You clearly have no idea what you're talking about. I don't even think you understand what effective health is.

    Let's go through this.

    the build is pure % mitigation, which will automatically scale with amount of dmg per hit, mean while.. those stacking end builds. will still, no matter what their gear is, have 2-3k more hp, which in boss terms, is about 1/4 of a auto attack from a boss, if not less.
    This, right here, shows a fundamental misunderstanding about how effective health is calculated, and what it means, so let's review.

    At the most basic level, effective health is a measurement of how much raw, unmitigated damage you can take before dying. The formula looks like this:

    EH=health/(1-mitigation)

    That's the simplified version, anyways. Some types of mitigation are additive or multiplicative with others, so the actual formula looks a little more complex, but it's still the same basic concept.

    So, for instance, if you have 100 health and 20% mitigation from armor, then you have 100/.8=125 effective health.

    Mitigation may reduce more damage as incoming damage increases, but the question isn't how much damage you're stopping, it's how much you can survive. From a pure EH standpoint, having 99% mitigation and 10 health (10k EH) is worse than having 50k health and 0% mitigation (50k EH) in terms of EH.

    Obviously, the gap between bard/ranger and other specs isn't quite so large, but the core idea is still the same. Tactician is never, EVER better than either bard or Ranger in terms of effective health, no matter how much incoming damage there is.

    but w/e I will let you play your way, and I shall play mine, and enjoy the praise of healers noting how I am not soo squishy, and much easier to heal, all while wearing only 4 pieces of tanking gear..
    What healers perceive as squishiness is often the result of a tank not rotating their cooldowns efficiently. Given that many tanks in experts don't use any cooldowns, let alone time them for optimal effect, the fact that you're less squishy than them is not particularly meaningful.

    Furthermore, the fact that something is viable does not mean it's optimal.

    Every single post I've ever seen you make about tanking has been way off the mark. Until you get a much better handle on the theorycraft involved, I politely request that you don't give out bad information.

  8. #8
    Ascendant Mirimon's Avatar
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    tldr,

    seems your pretty upset that I am enjoying the game? pretty odd way to feel about it....

    for those who want to play the game, and enjoy it.. anything you find here is not fact, but only advice, good and bad, some may apply, the rest may not. what is given here is different methods of play, and I can only hope you find the method right for you, and not be sucked into a bandwagon of hatred and denial. all the silly "math" and soo called statistics aside, put your hand to the test, and feel what is right for you.

  9. #9
    RIFT Guide Writer Muspel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mirimon View Post
    tldr,

    seems your pretty upset that I am enjoying the game? pretty odd way to feel about it....

    for those who want to play the game, and enjoy it.. anything you find here is not fact, but only advice, good and bad, some may apply, the rest may not. what is given here is different methods of play, and I can only hope you find the method right for you, and not be sucked into a bandwagon of hatred and denial. all the silly "math" and soo called statistics aside, put your hand to the test, and feel what is right for you.
    This thread is not about what's fun. He's asking what's best. The answer to that is "Adamant".

    It's fine if you enjoy tactician tanking. As long as it's not wiping your group, go wild.

    But when you come on the forums and start telling people it's an optimal spec, I'm going to tell you that you're wrong, because you are.

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