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  Click here to go to the first Rift Team post in this thread.   Thread: Assassin Desperately Needs a non-GCD Snare

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    Default Assassin Desperately Needs a non-GCD Snare

    Trion

    We appreciate the buffs you gave Assassin recently in terms of raw damage, however there is still a glaring issue with Assassins in PvP (and has been for quite some time). That is that Assassin has no snare. Further, a pure melee spec like that whose only gap closer is 58 points deep and isn't much of a PvP gap closer anyway (because it has no snare accompanied with it and charges you to the spot the player was when you started the charge meaning that if a player is moving, by the time your charge ends they are already gone) simply doesn't "feel right" in PvP. It is extremely hard to stay on any targets as Assassin and even if you go Sin/RS for blinks, it is still very frustrating trying to stay in melee range of moving targets.

    The moral of the story is that Assasin simply doesn't "feel right" in PvP unless it has some kind of non-GCD snare. In WoW, as an example, a snare was baked into poisons for the Rogue. Rogues would equip Crippling Poison onto one of their weapons (typically a fast off-hand) so that Crippling Poison, which snared their target by 50%, would be up most of the time. What's more is that Rogues even had an ability caled Shiv which would automatically attack with the Rogue's off-hand weapon and was guaranteed to apply whatever poison was on it.

    Now while I absolutely hate a lot about what WoW did, I can say with confidence that they did get the "feel" of Rogue (Assassins in Rift) combat right.

    My proposition: Bake a 30% snare into Debilitating Poison.

    Even if you have to reduce Assassin damage a bit to compensate, do it. Assassin simply doesn't feel right in PvP without the ability to stay on their opponent for longer than a split second or without having to blow one of only two stuns they have in a game ripe with innumerable CC effects all of which push the target into DR.

    EDIT: I would go on to add that I believe Warriors have been asking for a similar snare for some of their specs for a while. I'm confident that even if you had to reduce the damage of some of those Warrior specs to compensate (I don't know if you do or not), Warriors would happily take a similar snare as well. Melee targets should not spend most of their time 6 - 8 yards away from their opponent at all times with only a split second of opportunity to hit them with anything substantial.
    Last edited by Synovia; 12-15-2012 at 09:13 PM.
    Moved on from Rift due to: Rift's PvP being a mindless, skilless zerg that has been and will continue to be perpetuated and reinforced :: A horribly optimized engine :: My personal distaste for F2P (already heading down the P2W path) after giving it a fair shake. Rift is an exceptional MMO by an overachieving development team that unfortunately is ruined by a few personally show-stopping issues.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Synovia View Post
    Trion

    We appreciate the buffs you gave Assassin recently in terms of raw damage, however there is still a glaring issue with Assassins in PvP (and has been for quite some time). That is that Assassin has no snare.
    Wait...what?
    Quote Originally Posted by Synovia View Post

    My proposition: Bake a 30% snare into Debilitating Poison.
    So...you want a passive debuff on debilitating poison...thus perpetually snaring someone...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Katosu View Post
    Wait...what?

    So...you want a passive debuff on debilitating poison...thus perpetually snaring someone...
    To your first statement, Assassin recently got buffed in 2.1. A few of Assassin's key abilities had their damage increased to bring it up to par.

    To your second statement, yes, that is precisely what I want. I want an Assassin in PvP to be able to stay on their target fairly well. There are plenty of mechanisms available to lots of different specs to make them immune to snares for a duration, or to remove all snares, or to teleport them away or to in some share or form allow them to get distance from their opponents. I want Assassins, and really any pure melee that relies ENTIRELY on staying on their opponent (note that Assassin has ZERO ranged capability) to have a perpetual snare. For Assasin, it makes sense to bake it into Debilitating Poison - a poison that outside of the now deprecated Laethys encounter, does not get used.
    Moved on from Rift due to: Rift's PvP being a mindless, skilless zerg that has been and will continue to be perpetuated and reinforced :: A horribly optimized engine :: My personal distaste for F2P (already heading down the P2W path) after giving it a fair shake. Rift is an exceptional MMO by an overachieving development team that unfortunately is ruined by a few personally show-stopping issues.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Synovia View Post
    t outside of the now deprecated Laethys encounter, does not get used.
    So your argument seems to be "this poison is useless in pve, so let's buff it for pvp" which is a horrible argument.

    Rogues already have a spammable RANGED snare that is insanely easy to get. Stop complaining. Sin does not need it. Adjust your spec if you want it.

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    RIFT Guide Writer Muspel's Avatar
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    I pray that this thread is a parody of rogues asking for absurd buffs, rather than a serious plea.

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    My argument isn't about PvE vs PvP and it isn't really about Debilitating Poison being a waste of a talent point (although it is). My argument is simply that Assasin has no gap closer unless you go 58 and, even then, the gap closer is horrendous. I find it poor design that a pure melee tree like Assassin would require that you go into other trees to get something as trivial as a snare.

    Basically my argument is that Assassin simply doesn't feel right in PvP and because of this I won't use it and I hardly ever see anyone else using it. If you want to start seeing more of a variety of Rogue specs in PvP other than MM and NB/RS, then we need to start adjusting the tree to be PvP viable and Assassin needs a way to stay on their targets.
    Moved on from Rift due to: Rift's PvP being a mindless, skilless zerg that has been and will continue to be perpetuated and reinforced :: A horribly optimized engine :: My personal distaste for F2P (already heading down the P2W path) after giving it a fair shake. Rift is an exceptional MMO by an overachieving development team that unfortunately is ruined by a few personally show-stopping issues.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Synovia View Post
    To your first statement, Assassin recently got buffed in 2.1. A few of Assassin's key abilities had their damage increased to bring it up to par.
    That it did, in terms of PvE.
    In terms of Pv, Assassins destroy whomever they target.

    Quote Originally Posted by Synovia View Post
    snip

    Stealth nuff said.

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    If you want to pick up some gap closers, drop some points into Riftstalker, Bladedancer, Marksman, or Saboteur. Any of those will net you a movement speed increase, a gap closer, a snare, or all of the above.

    Assassin is 100% PVP viable, the reason it has such ridiculous melee damage is because it has few gap closers. It's part of the give-and-take system that we call "balance" around here, and saying that Assassin is balanced is quite a bit of an overstatement at that.
    ~Quiescent

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    Yeah, this has to be a troll thread. I mean, where do you put those 15 points (assuming 61 sin) where you DON'T get a snare, sprint or ranged ability?

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    Assassin used to have a 5 second snare, I think it was Maiming slice? It was in the root around 8-12 points in. They could bring that back, it had zero damage, so I rarely used it. I liked the old BD 8 second snare better. I think that one is gone too.
    Last edited by Fleetness; 12-15-2012 at 10:43 PM.

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    This is not a troll thread. I don't know what's so hard about understanding that I don't like the playstyle of Assassin and I wished it played more like the WoW Rogue in that it could stay on a target. I'm also saying that you can feel free to nerf Assassin damage in PvP if you need to as a trade-off for giving it a perpetual snare. Assassin is currently very frustrating to attempt to play in PvP because it is so easy to get away from them. Even when you use blinks or a gap closer the nature of Rift movement means the target, if they are already moving, are out of melee range and can easily avoid your attacks.
    Moved on from Rift due to: Rift's PvP being a mindless, skilless zerg that has been and will continue to be perpetuated and reinforced :: A horribly optimized engine :: My personal distaste for F2P (already heading down the P2W path) after giving it a fair shake. Rift is an exceptional MMO by an overachieving development team that unfortunately is ruined by a few personally show-stopping issues.

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    Tbh, assassin just needs their 58pt leap to have some sort of CC tied to it. It becomes very rough with none at all. You can miss a target way out of melee range. I've even noticed if you miss it enough you don't get a hit out of it at all. It has a great CD and has a good range. I'd rather see that ability tweaked a tad. 58 assassin is pretty deep and gives little room for quality gap closers with bottlenecking specs too much.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Violacea View Post
    Tbh, assassin just needs their 58pt leap to have some sort of CC tied to it. It becomes very rough with none at all. You can miss a target way out of melee range. I've even noticed if you miss it enough you don't get a hit out of it at all. It has a great CD and has a good range. I'd rather see that ability tweaked a tad. 58 assassin is pretty deep and gives little room for quality gap closers with bottlenecking specs too much.
    If they put some kind of root on Leaping Plunge, that might work.
    Moved on from Rift due to: Rift's PvP being a mindless, skilless zerg that has been and will continue to be perpetuated and reinforced :: A horribly optimized engine :: My personal distaste for F2P (already heading down the P2W path) after giving it a fair shake. Rift is an exceptional MMO by an overachieving development team that unfortunately is ruined by a few personally show-stopping issues.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Synovia View Post
    Trion

    We appreciate the buffs you gave Assassin recently in terms of raw damage, however there is still a glaring issue with Assassins in PvP (and has been for quite some time). That is that Assassin has no snare. Further, a pure melee spec like that whose only gap closer is 58 points deep and isn't much of a PvP gap closer anyway (because it has no snare accompanied with it and charges you to the spot the player was when you started the charge meaning that if a player is moving, by the time your charge ends they are already gone) simply doesn't "feel right" in PvP. It is extremely hard to stay on any targets as Assassin and even if you go Sin/RS for blinks, it is still very frustrating trying to stay in melee range of moving targets.

    The moral of the story is that Assasin simply doesn't "feel right" in PvP unless it has some kind of non-GCD snare. In WoW, as an example, a snare was baked into poisons for the Rogue. Rogues would equip Crippling Poison onto one of their weapons (typically a fast off-hand) so that Crippling Poison, which snared their target by 50%, would be up most of the time. What's more is that Rogues even had an ability caled Shiv which would automatically attack with the Rogue's off-hand weapon and was guaranteed to apply whatever poison was on it.

    Now while I absolutely hate a lot about what WoW did, I can say with confidence that they did get the "feel" of Rogue (Assassins in Rift) combat right.

    My proposition: Bake a 30% snare into Debilitating Poison.

    Even if you have to reduce Assassin damage a bit to compensate, do it. Assassin simply doesn't feel right in PvP without the ability to stay on their opponent for longer than a split second or without having to blow one of only two stuns they have in a game ripe with innumerable CC effects all of which push the target into DR.

    EDIT: I would go on to add that I believe Warriors have been asking for a similar snare for some of their specs for a while. I'm confident that even if you had to reduce the damage of some of those Warrior specs to compensate (I don't know if you do or not), Warriors would happily take a similar snare as well. Melee targets should not spend most of their time 6 - 8 yards away from their opponent at all times with only a split second of opportunity to hit them with anything substantial.
    I'm with Synovia on this. I played a rogue for 6 years in WoW, almost exclusively in Arena and battlegrounds. Assassins need a poison (replace 58 pt charge) that does no damage, but applies a snare that has no DR. It's a poison, it can be cleansed. This game is far too ranged-leaning in pvp as it is. I'm not level 60, so I can't speak for that level of play, but I've played Rift since release and Assassin has never been a dominant role in warfronts and most of the time hasn't even been viable. The best things about rogues in WoW wasn't that their damage output was so high, it was that with their superior use of CC, in the right hands, allowed them to do more damage to their opponents than their opponents to them. But they key here is that they needed to truly be skilled to pull it off at a high level (scrubs are scrubs regardless, regardless, I'm not talking about them).
    Unrated -- Now show me on this doll where the mean rogue touched you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Emanresu View Post
    I'm with Synovia on this. I played a rogue for 6 years in WoW, almost exclusively in Arena and battlegrounds. Assassins need a poison (replace 58 pt charge) that does no damage, but applies a snare that has no DR. It's a poison, it can be cleansed. This game is far too ranged-leaning in pvp as it is. I'm not level 60, so I can't speak for that level of play, but I've played Rift since release and Assassin has never been a dominant role in warfronts and most of the time hasn't even been viable. The best things about rogues in WoW wasn't that their damage output was so high, it was that with their superior use of CC, in the right hands, allowed them to do more damage to their opponents than their opponents to them. But they key here is that they needed to truly be skilled to pull it off at a high level (scrubs are scrubs regardless, regardless, I'm not talking about them).
    WoW's PvP is profoundly different from Rift's.

    In WoW, PvP revolves around proper use of CC, locking down the enemies while you pick them off one by one. In Rift, PvP is more of a slugfest, with control abilities being far less important.

    Assassin is balanced around "high damage, low uptime". (I use "balanced" in the loosest sense of the term, here, because the spec is overpowered at the moment). It's able to crank out very high damage, but has trouble sticking to its target. By comparison, Nightblade and Marksman do less damage, but are able to hit people who run away more easily.

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