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Thread: Assassin and BD buffs not stacking?

  1. #1
    Champion
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    Default Assassin and BD buffs not stacking?

    On paper, this build should be doing massive up-front damage:

    49 Sin / 22 BD / 5 Ranger

    Now hear me out, with around 30% base crit, add 5% more crit from Ranger, 5% from ruthlessness, and 10% dex from BD that should bring the base crit up to near 50%. Then you factor in an extra 10% crit on Savage Strikes, 50% crit on stealth attacks (10% for backstab) - which means stealth attacks should crit almost 100% of the time, giving subsequent attacks 15% more damage from Hack and Slash, 15% more damage from cloak and dagger, 10% more damage from Cruel Vengeance, 20% more damage on Sin attacks from Heartseeker, 10% more damage from combat expertise, thrown in Blade Tempo which increased damage by a whopping 30% for 15s.. anyhow I could go on and on. I'm looking at the attacks for Sin and they do comparable damage to other rogue attacks, yet the damage output I get in this spec, which IMO should be ridiculously OP, is pathetic.

    The only conclusion I can come to is that the damage buffs from Assassin and Blade Dancer are not stacking, yet there is no indication of this in the tooltips.

    Am I totally off base here or is anyone else noticing this? If I'm off base, what am I doing wrong?

    Thanks in advance.

  2. #2
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    There's one of two things happening...or possibly both. You're experiencing diminishing returns, or the buffs stack multiplicatively instead of additive.

  3. #3
    RIFT Guide Writer Muspel's Avatar
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    How the hell are you getting 30% base crit? And 10% dex is not even remotely close to 10% crit.

    Quote Originally Posted by PlagueSD View Post
    There's one of two things happening...or possibly both. You're experiencing diminishing returns, or the buffs stack multiplicatively instead of additive.
    If they stacked multiplicatively, it would be stronger, not weaker.
    Last edited by Muspel; 12-13-2012 at 02:00 PM.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Muspel View Post
    How the hell are you getting 30% base crit? And 10% dex is not even remotely close to 10% crit.


    If they stacked multiplicatively, it would be stronger, not weaker.
    .30 + .50 = .80 (80%)
    .30 * .50 = .15 (15%)

  5. #5
    Ascendant Zazen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PlagueSD View Post
    .30 + .50 = .80 (80%)
    .30 * .50 = .15 (15%)
    Fail. That's not even remotely how it works.

  6. #6
    RIFT Guide Writer Muspel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PlagueSD View Post
    .30 + .50 = .80 (80%)
    .30 * .50 = .15 (15%)
    You failed to include the base damage in the multiplication. By your math, Silver Tip Munitions (which is multiplicative with other damage buffs) actually reduces your damage by 91%.

    The actual calculation is:

    1*(1+.3+.5)=1.8=180%
    vs.
    1*1.3*1.5=1.95=195%
    Last edited by Muspel; 12-13-2012 at 05:43 PM.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Muspel View Post
    You failed to include the base damage in the multiplication. By your math, Silver Tip Munitions (which is multiplicative with other damage buffs) actually reduces your damage by 91%.

    The actual calculation is:

    1*(1+.3+.5)=1.8=180%
    vs.
    1*1.3*1.5=1.95=195%
    While the other guy absolutely did the math wrong, there is another way the tooltip could be interpreted mathematically that is multiplicative that produces a lesser result.

    A 5% increased chance to crit doesn't have to mean 1.05 * (1 + basecrit).

    It can mean (1.05 * basecrit) + 1.

    A 5% increase to, say, a 30% crit rate can mean increasing that 30% by 5%, which produces an end crit rate of 1.315, instead of the 1.35 you would expect if it's additive.

    I've played quite a few games that when they say "increases chance to crit by 10%" they mean that a 30% chance becomes 33%, not 40%.

    Not saying Rift works this way, but multiplicative doesn't have to produce a higher result, depending on the order of operations.
    Last edited by Yonder; 12-17-2012 at 02:47 PM.

  8. #8
    RIFT Guide Writer Muspel's Avatar
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    We're talking about damage buffs, not crit buffs. All crit buffs are additive. Unless you're dealing with damage reducing effects (like Guardian Phase), all multiplicative damage boosts will be stronger than additive ones.
    Last edited by Muspel; 12-17-2012 at 02:54 PM.

  9. #9
    Ascendant Mayi's Avatar
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    From what I see your crit should be at around 22%. Gear + 10% dex = maybe 12%, then plus 10% crit on that of that for the talents in ranger and assassin.
    I rite a gooded guide for rouges.

    NB-Sin Guide - http://forums.riftgame.com/rift-gene...-sin-spec.html

  10. #10
    Ascendant Galibier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yonder View Post
    While the other guy absolutely did the math wrong, there is another way the tooltip could be interpreted mathematically that is multiplicative that produces a lesser result.

    A 5% increased chance to crit doesn't have to mean 1.05 * (1 + basecrit).

    It can mean (1.05 * basecrit) + 1.

    A 5% increase to, say, a 30% crit rate can mean increasing that 30% by 5%, which produces an end crit rate of 1.315, instead of the 1.35 you would expect if it's additive.

    I've played quite a few games that when they say "increases chance to crit by 10%" they mean that a 30% chance becomes 33%, not 40%.

    Not saying Rift works this way, but multiplicative doesn't have to produce a higher result, depending on the order of operations.
    The point is how Rift works with these kind of calculations has been established for 2 years. It always amazes me when people post bad math that is proven to be bad, someone has to white knight the error with a "not saying this is how it works" qualifier. I remember a time when you made a mistake and just said "sorry guys, I was wrong. Thanks for the correction."
    Far better is it to dare mighty things, to win glorius triumphs, even though checkered by failure... than to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy nor suffer much, because they live in a gray twilight that knows not victory nor defeat.

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