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Thread: DES vs Strafe

  1. #1
    Prophet of Telara Raynald's Avatar
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    Default DES vs Strafe

    This is something I'm just wondering, and my math is terribad so I'm leaving it to the masters of excel spreadsheets to help me out here but here's a q.

    The current rotation for DPS uses hasted shot as the finisher, since it does more DPS over DES. BUT we also get e-starved and use strafe as the filler to regen.

    What if we dropped the point in strafe and used DES (since it's still 1.5s cast) instead to regen? Would that, theoretically, smooth out the curve enough to make it worthwhile?
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    I thought that we used Hasted Shot as a finisher to get more Empowered Shots in, but I don't DPS a lot, usually tanking, so I can't say for sure.

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    Ascendant Mayi's Avatar
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    I think you're both right. You could get rid of strafe and use DES instead to regain energy, that would probably work. I also agree that the main benefit of hasted is more empowered shots (plus 4 piece dungeon is for hasted).

    I don't agree with people who want to get rid of Strafe though. It's a dps increase. You can tell by how hard it hits, if I'm doing say 12k dps in a raid and the strafe ticks average 12k plus I get procs, etc... then it has to be.

    I think some people might be misusing strafe though. I use it in two situations:

    1. After headshot where you get no empowered to build to 5 combo points
    2. After quick reload; where I'll get a free combo point, then hit empowered, then strafe and clip strafe and use my finisher at 5 combo points.

    Use it in those two situations and I can't see it being a dps loss. I think it only ends up being a loss when you're getting slower/less empowered shots because you've used strafe.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mayi View Post
    I think you're both right. You could get rid of strafe and use DES instead to regain energy, that would probably work. I also agree that the main benefit of hasted is more empowered shots (plus 4 piece dungeon is for hasted).

    I don't agree with people who want to get rid of Strafe though. It's a dps increase. You can tell by how hard it hits, if I'm doing say 12k dps in a raid and the strafe ticks average 12k plus I get procs, etc... then it has to be.

    I think some people might be misusing strafe though. I use it in two situations:

    1. After headshot where you get no empowered to build to 5 combo points
    2. After quick reload; where I'll get a free combo point, then hit empowered, then strafe and clip strafe and use my finisher at 5 combo points.

    Use it in those two situations and I can't see it being a dps loss. I think it only ends up being a loss when you're getting slower/less empowered shots because you've used strafe.
    I've been debating this exact point with a good friend of mine because he agrees with you that strafe is a DPs increase while I think it is a DPS loss and an unnecessary CD. Consider this though, strafe is on a 45 sec CD and is a 4 sec channel if you let it go its full duration. Now i admit during that channel strafe is most defiantly a DPS increase but not an incredible one, but what about the other 41 seconds that you aren't channeling? for those 41 seconds you are losing 4% AP to all of your primary burn rotation skills. This issue becomes even worse when you only use strafe for 2 combo points or only use it after a headshot, and this is loss is even more exaggerated when you have the 4 piece crystal because your empowered shots and swift shots (the primary things you are using when u aren't using strafe) are increased by the crystal while strafe isn't increased at all.
    Last night i was parsing my build without strafe and getting 9.3k on the dummy with only self buffs + fervor (and yes i have the 4 piece with crystal), then tested the exact same build only swapping that one point for strafe and my dps dropped to 9.1k. Now granted the 40/36 build is very RNG dependent, but both parses were repeated twice over 4-5 mins each time with nearly the same exact results.
    That being said, a friend of mine (who doesn't have 4 piece but has much better gear and about 300 more AP) was also parsing and got almost the exact opposite results (about a 200 DPS increase by using strafe)
    I'm hoping to sit down and do some actual math tomorrow to see if i can see a difference using theoretical DPS instead of considering human error and imperfect rotations but from what i can see, right now anyway, I would say that if you have the crystal, strafe is somewhere between an unnecessary CD to manage for no increased DPS, to possibly even a DPS loss.

  5. #5
    Telaran
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    I think that the 4% increased ap and weapondamage should become a bigger increase in dps at some point, however i do not know what point that is. But for now i can see i have higher dps when using Strafe than when im not. But on the other hand i am in pre-raid gear.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stabbzalot View Post
    I think that the 4% increased ap and weapondamage should become a bigger increase in dps at some point, however i do not know what point that is. But for now i can see i have higher dps when using Strafe than when im not. But on the other hand i am in pre-raid gear.
    but that isn't the actual tradeoff with strafe.

    The trade of is 1% energy reduction and 4% additive damage increase vs strafe. Considering we are well over 100% passive damage increase in the build, that 4% is really <2%.

    The 4% AP trade-off is raptor vs wolf.

    Strafe ticks for ~66% of the damage of EMP but hits 5 times in 4s which puts it at 82.5% of the damage of EMP per GCD. It is basically, the second highest damage per GCD that you can do. A 2CP clipped strafe actually is the highest damage of any rogue attack per GCD at ~133% of EMP per GCD.

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    RIFT Guide Writer Orangu's Avatar
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    it really depends on your point spread, but generally I find strafe to be a DPS loss and instead sub in DES to compensate for energy loss, the reasoning I have is that wen you use strafe, you waste a CP point, and you miss an empowered shot proc which means getting to your next finisher later. That's the best explaination I have.


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  8. #8
    Ascendant Mayi's Avatar
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    You only lose an empowered if you don't clip strafe. Since strafe adds a combo point per second it should be building combo points faster then most attacks because of latency. If you use it after head shot then there's no empowered to lose (because there's no 2 combo point builder lost) so you're building combo points quickly.

    Channeled attacks work like cast time abilities. You get to use an ability immediately afterwards because the global cooldown applies when you start casting the attack and not when it ends. So in theory you can clip strafe after it hits and follow it up in the same second with another ability (like a finisher). In practice with latency and whatnot it takes almost half a second, but you should still be building combo points faster then any other way possible by clipping strafe.

    I think the main reason people lose dps with strafe (and some don't) is because of splinter shot. Always make sure splinter's just been reapplied before using strafe for max dps.
    Last edited by Mayi; 12-07-2012 at 10:32 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Durango View Post
    but that isn't the actual tradeoff with strafe.

    The trade of is 1% energy reduction and 4% additive damage increase vs strafe. Considering we are well over 100% passive damage increase in the build, that 4% is really <2%.

    The 4% AP trade-off is raptor vs wolf.

    Strafe ticks for ~66% of the damage of EMP but hits 5 times in 4s which puts it at 82.5% of the damage of EMP per GCD. It is basically, the second highest damage per GCD that you can do. A 2CP clipped strafe actually is the highest damage of any rogue attack per GCD at ~133% of EMP per GCD.
    Im running 42mm/34rgr and i have 5/5 in Controlled Fire already, what i would gain is 1 point in Steady Hand (4% ap and wd), 1 point in Single Minded Focus (1% dmg increase) or 1 point in Collateral Damge (1% dmg increase for ST and 4%dmg increase for AOE). But since Single Minded Focus is almost the same but worse than Collateral Damage, its up to the distinction between Steady Hand and Collateral Damge.. where im sure at some point 4% ap and wd is better than 1% dmg.... not sure tho

    link to specc

    If there is something else im missing, please let me know.
    Last edited by Stabbzalot; 12-07-2012 at 11:42 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stabbzalot View Post
    link to specc

    If there is something else im missing, please let me know.
    Firstly, there is no energy issue in a raid setting. Even running the build solo, doing dailies, I don't get starved. Proper use of Strafe = win.

    Also, play with your point allocations a bit. The most optimized build I've found so far, has more in Ranger, and less in MM, then the build you linked.
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  11. #11
    Prophet of Telara Raynald's Avatar
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    That's exactly my q guys lol we're goin' in circles!

    So from what it seems, using DES eventually becomes a DPS up over Strafe + also smoothes out the e regen issue?

    I use Strafe either after HS or when I'm runnin' low on e to regen. The problem with Strafe though is that it seems to check its range on every tick. This is problematic on fights where the boss is technically "bigger" and has an increased range due to that. E.g. Maelforge P1 when we're still on the lower level, if I have to readjust due to red/yellow circles during a Strafe, I instantly stop strafing. I've also noticed this with some bosses such as Volan etc.
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  12. #12
    Ascendant Zazen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mayi View Post
    You only lose an empowered if you don't clip strafe. Since strafe adds a combo point per second it should be building combo points faster then most attacks because of latency. If you use it after head shot then there's no empowered to lose (because there's no 2 combo point builder lost) so you're building combo points quickly.

    Channeled attacks work like cast time abilities. You get to use an ability immediately afterwards because the global cooldown applies when you start casting the attack and not when it ends. So in theory you can clip strafe after it hits and follow it up in the same second with another ability (like a finisher). In practice with latency and whatnot it takes almost half a second, but you should still be building combo points faster then any other way possible by clipping strafe.

    I think the main reason people lose dps with strafe (and some don't) is because of splinter shot. Always make sure splinter's just been reapplied before using strafe for max dps.

    This is bang on the money. These are my preconditions for using Strafe:

    1. Target has 3 stacks of STM
    2. Increased Fire Power is active
    3. Shoot to Kill is active
    4. Splinter Shot has enough time left on its dot to complete the number of ticks of Strafe you will use
    5. I have 3 or less combo-points

    I always clip Strafe when the fifth combo-point is acquired, even if that means I only get 2 ticks.

  13. #13
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    Ultimately, in regards to the OP's question, the damage difference in all abilities is actually closer to what Durango mentioned (less than 2% to all other attacks).

    That may be well and good on paper and dummy testing, but the instant you have to cancel a DES because some circle of doom appeared at your feet, you have lost damage.

    The instant you delay a DES because some circle of doom appeared at your feet, you've lost damage.

    Casting DES the entire time to ensure the above do not cause you to become energy starved, you've lost damage.

    I think you can see where I'm going with this.

    Strafe/hasted is a much more raid approved method of action provided they are done per Mayi and other's "requirements."

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