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Thread: Stat priorities

  1. #1
    Telaran Carear's Avatar
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    Default Stat priorities

    Hey all,

    I'm just trying to determine what our stat priorities are these days. The four we have to choose from are: dex, str, ap, and crit.

    I know that dex > str, but I have no idea where ap and crit fit in. I've asked around, and nobody else can give me a firm answer, either. For that matter, in SL is lightning glyph still the top choice?

    Thanks in advance.
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    Plane Touched takadox's Avatar
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    You forgot to mention Crit Power, which increases the damage of critical hits past 150%.

    I don't know the actual math behind AP vs Crit for Rogues but I know that for Mages 1 SP is worth about 5 Crit, so I would assume some similar numbers are present for Rogues. Take that with a grain of salt though.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carear View Post
    Hey all,

    I'm just trying to determine what our stat priorities are these days. The four we have to choose from are: dex, str, ap, and crit.

    I know that dex > str, but I have no idea where ap and crit fit in. I've asked around, and nobody else can give me a firm answer, either. For that matter, in SL is lightning glyph still the top choice?

    Thanks in advance.
    Str is useless, you'd need 3 str to compare to 1 dex and at a ratio to 3:1 you shouldn't even be looking at the str on items.

    Crit is almost as useless as str at the moment. You can stack 2000 crit and be between 15 and 20% crit rate, and with items only having 50-100 crit per it just doesn't make sense to stack it, as even if you had crit on all 12 of your items (12x 100 = 1200), that would only be a gain of about 10% crit which is next to nothing compared to even a 500 ap gain.

    The last thing to look at would be crit power, but with it being the exact same thing as AP but only effective on crits, and crits being in the state that they are at the moment, the stat seems almost completely useless.

    TL;DR stack dex and ap, and as for buffing your weapons, the lightning glyph gives 30 dex where the new whets give 100ap so use the whets.

  4. #4
    Plane Touched takadox's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kayos View Post
    Str is useless, you'd need 3 str to compare to 1 dex and at a ratio to 3:1 you shouldn't even be looking at the str on items.

    Crit is almost as useless as str at the moment. You can stack 2000 crit and be between 15 and 20% crit rate, and with items only having 50-100 crit per it just doesn't make sense to stack it, as even if you had crit on all 12 of your items (12x 100 = 1200), that would only be a gain of about 10% crit which is next to nothing compared to even a 500 ap gain.

    The last thing to look at would be crit power, but with it being the exact same thing as AP but only effective on crits, and crits being in the state that they are at the moment, the stat seems almost completely useless.

    TL;DR stack dex and ap, and as for buffing your weapons, the lightning glyph gives 30 dex where the new whets give 100ap so use the whets.
    Be careful about Crit Power. You forget that depending on your build you can have a very high crit chance. Remember that talents which increase the critical hit chance of specific abilities are not displayed in your character sheet. For example Assassins have +10% crit to Savage Strike and Backstab, as well as +50% crit to stealth attacks. Things like this can vastly increase your actual crit chance and thus make Crit Power more desirable.

    Now I'm not saying Crit Power is better than AP because of this, I'm just saying don't dismiss it out of hand without first factoring in the hidden crit chance from talents.

  5. #5
    Ascendant Violacea's Avatar
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    Crit power has to be very good to be useful at this point. I've read about it and seen its performance when certain talents offered it prior. It seems just like EQ2's crit power - slightly stronger than base damage, only on crit, increase (and seems to be close to where it fell in the formula for damage output). What I do know is that we reached 100% crit in that game and it was a drop in DPS to use crit bonus before you reached 75 - 80%+ crit chance. But the common alternative was often base damage, which I am not sure is a good lateral comparison to AP. Or how AP plays relatively for power in this game compared to crit power hits.

    However, the fact DPS started to drop when choosing crit bonus over other stats around 80%, it makes me wonder how crit bonus can give any substantial DPS gain over other solid consistent options when our crit chances (even with some talents) are really no higher than 25 - 30%. Lots of talents still sit around 10 - 20% crit. Crit bonus wouldn't have been dream't of being used in the other game with crit chances of 25 - 50%, while other stats gave full time benefit crit or no crit.

    Crit bonus would have to be vastly superior in this game compared to eq2s, and AP/SP would have to be vastly worse than base damage was (I don't think it is, esp with all the bonuses based around it) for crit bonus to maybe be a DPS gain around 50 - 75% crit chance. That is my ballpark 2c on crit bonus. I think they brought it in too late. I just don't see it being potent enough and utilized enough with our current crit chances. Maybe I would have given it thought during the 50 era when my crit chance was 45 - 50% - maybe.
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    RIFT Guide Writer
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    Dex > Attack Power > Crit Power > Crit Chance = Rogue Stat priority

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    General of Telara spowers454's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by takadox View Post
    I don't know the actual math behind AP vs Crit for Rogues but I know that for Mages 1 SP is worth about 5 Crit, so I would assume some similar numbers are present for Rogues. Take that with a grain of salt though.
    I've heard plenty of people say the 1ap=5crit for a lot of classes but it may be even higher for rogues, we get so much of our crit from multipliers and passives that is just crushes crit stacking. MM for example gets around 2/3 of our crit from raid buffs and speced talents which puts me close to 40ish %, on everything except RFS, chance to crit in raids even though my crit rating from stats alone is in the mid 12% range. SO just for that reason i would say--- ap>dex(but not by much almost equal)>crit power > str>crit. Before the raging starts I will explain, str is 1/2 crit point and .25 to ap so even going off of the norm 1ap to 5 crit the str ap gain would be 1 to 4 and still picking up a little crit as well.

    I haven't seen anyone give it a point value system so I gave them one myself

    1.0 ap
    .9 dex
    .44 CP
    .3 str
    .2

    this in no way is perfect but I just went off my stats and what ratios , like 1 to 5 ap vs crit, that seem to be the accepted ratios. So if ap is given a 1 value then dex would get the .75 for ap that it gives and if crit is only 5 to 1 vs ap the crit gets a .2 rating which gives dex and str a .10+ to them. CP was the one that like most people are just not sure how to value. So - 40% crit rating increases my crits by 13% so I just gave it a .4 based off of my raid chance to hit, really prob closer to .37/.8 but not getting into exact science then 13/40% gave me 40%+.4 = 44, value given was .44. Im sure it could be more exact but this prob isnt a bad was to gauge stats. I would imagine that CP value will pretty much change with every stat gained or lost all I had to go off of was my gear. and the fact that it has a much lower point to %age ratio prob need to be taken into account better but honestly I would rather play the game than spend anymore time trying to get the perfect formula.

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  8. #8
    RIFT Guide Writer Muspel's Avatar
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    (spowers, this isn't directed at you specifically, just so you know.)

    I really wish people would stop making up stat values without doing any math whatsoever.

    I've yet to see any kind of analysis from anyone about anything, but everyone just says "AP is better". Now, maybe that's true. Maybe it's not. But there's no math either way, and I've yet to see anyone do any testing to figure out what's actually best, or to work out sims or formulas or anything. Worse yet, some people keep assuming there's a single set of stat weights, when it'll actually vary a LOT from soul to soul based on talents and passive crit bonuses and such.

    I get that people want to help others out, but bringing out numbers that aren't even remotely tested or backed up by any math is even worse than not having any information at all.
    Last edited by Muspel; 12-04-2012 at 01:25 PM.

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    RIFT Guide Writer Muspel's Avatar
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    Question: do we know the AP ratios for all of the rogue abilities? If so, it should be relatively simple to make a spreadsheet to calculate stat weights for the souls with simpler rotations. Particularly Bladedancer.

    I'm not going near Marksman with a 10-foot-pole, though. Not yet, anyways-- the fact that the cooldowns alter the rotation makes it a significant pain to model, particularly when you throw Decoy into the mix.
    Last edited by Muspel; 12-04-2012 at 01:30 PM.

  10. #10
    Ascendant Mayi's Avatar
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    AP's better!

    You get on that spreadsheet, I was going to do something similar but laziness got in the way. Until it's done I'll go by intuition and some in-game experience and say ap's the way to go. An example was when I got Lycini rep maxed and added the crit power purple lesser my dps went down, I was pissed. In raids it's probably more effective but my dummy parse decreased.
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  11. #11
    RIFT Guide Writer Muspel's Avatar
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    Well, before I can start on the spreadsheet, I need some information that I don't have yet. I'm willing to use the info to (attempt to) make a spreadsheet, but I'm too lazy to actually track it down myself.

    Including, but not limited to:
    • Exactly how much damage 1 point of AP adds to every rogue ability-- I think there used to be a resource for this, but I don't know where it was or if it's been updated for Storm Legion.
    • The base damage numbers on every ability. Not the amount you see on the tooltip, because those are modified by AP and various damage bonuses. This is how much the ability would do with zero AP and no points in any soul or talent. Magelo and Zam seem to have different numbers for these, so I don't really know which is right.
    • How to calculate the damage of an auto-attack.
    • A full list of raid buffs and debuff effects (not the names, but what the actual stat benefits are for a full set-- for instance, you get 6% crit from beastmaster+bard, and 5% more from lethal poison, which gives 11% crit total). In every case, mention whether it's a buff or a debuff, because it's very relevant when it comes to additive stacking vs multiplicative stacking.
    • The formulas for crit rating and crit power (that is, how much rating it takes to make 1% crit chance or crit damage)
    • Someone told me once that some stat bonuses aren't affected by various multipliers (I think it was PA bonuses). Is this true? Does that include whetstones, vials, and raid buffs-- for instance, is Fanfare of Power multiplied by Resonance?

    And probably some other stuff that I forgot. If I can get this, then I'll put my Excel-fu into action.

    oh god what did I just agree to do
    Last edited by Muspel; 12-04-2012 at 02:09 PM.

  12. #12
    General of Telara spowers454's Avatar
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    Yea man, if you want to tackle coming up with the exact ap to crit ratio I'm all for it. I just took the 1:5 that seems to be the what most classes as well as rogue seem to agree on. And while I have done enough testing stats to feel 100% sure that ap is heavily out weighting crit right now I haven't came close to narrowing down the margin that close. Honestly I feel it's prob closer to 1:7-1:8 ap to crit but 1:5 seems to be the accepted stat weight so I rolled with it.

    And good luck with that btw, got to be honest i think I would rather stab myself in the eyes rather than stare at a spreadsheet and calculator anywhere near long enough to pin point the exact ap to crit ratio, and then trying to give CP a value when it changes with crit ratios EWWWWWWWWWWWWW
    Last edited by spowers454; 12-04-2012 at 03:22 PM.

  13. #13
    RIFT Guide Writer Muspel's Avatar
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    That part is actually relatively easy.

    Here's a simplified version of what I'd do...

    During each dance, you use twenty abilities-- 16 builders and 4 finishers (except during Dualism, when it's 15 builders and 5 finishers). Once you know the AP scaling on an ability and its base damage, I can plug those into a formula. For instance, during Dualism, you use 5 Binary Strikes and 10 Quick Strikes, so I can just figure out how much base damage that is, and how much of an impact attack power has on that.

    From there, I make another formula that applies the effects of crit power and crit chance. Repeat the process for each dance, and then add all four dances together (there's actually a spot at the end where you throw in Blade Tempo for a few seconds, but I'm keeping things simple here). That lets you calculate exactly how much damage you'll do over the course of a full-dance cycle for any given amount of AP, crit, and crit power.

    Then you just tweak the values of each stat to see how much it affects the DPS total. The time-consuming part is actually setting up the DPS rotations and various buff effects.

    There's more to it, obviously-- I'd have to calculate the average number of stacks on Duelist Pose, not to mention uptime on Hack and Slash/Magnify Pain, but you get the general idea.

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    Ascendant Mayi's Avatar
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    One thing I've figured out that would help, use the tooltip instead of hitting the dummy to find ability damage. With so much RNG it's hard to figure out small differences in ap, but since tooltips are now accurate you can use them to find out how much each point of AP increases the damage.

    Oh another thing, they changed the way damage calculations works on abilities. If I remember correctly it's something like:

    [(base damage of ability + ap) * damage % modifiers * weapon dps] * damage % modifier proc'd buffs

    Something along those lines. Point is the effectiveness of ap will change depending on your % damage modifiers and weapon dps. I'll see if I can find the post but I think this was the gist of it but I've probably make a couple of mistakes.
    Last edited by Mayi; 12-04-2012 at 03:49 PM.
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    RIFT Guide Writer Muspel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mayi View Post
    One thing I've figured out that would help, use the tooltip instead of hitting the dummy to find ability damage. With so much RNG it's hard to figure out small differences in ap, but since tooltips are now accurate you can use them to find out how much each point of AP increases the damage.
    The problem is that I can't find the base damage of abilities. None of the three sources I've checked can agree on anything.

    EDIT: I can't really pin down the exact formula, either. I don't know how weapon damage and attack power interact.

    Ugh. I know how to make the spreadsheet, but I don't know any of the data for the actual inputs.
    Last edited by Muspel; 12-04-2012 at 07:38 PM.

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