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Thread: Lots of heat on Rogues lately; thought I'd post a rotation I started using...

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    Plane Touched Aysander's Avatar
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    Default Lots of heat on Rogues lately; thought I'd post a rotation I started using...

    It's a bit of a complex one, I think. My build for ST DPS is 51 BD, 10 NB, 5 RS. I don't have a parse addon atm so I have no clue what the actual DPS is, however I tend to hit roughly 500-2.2k depending on the ability. Not even in full T1

    For the ST rotation I do something like this...

    Blade Tempo -> Fire Spike -> Fire Spike -> Fire Spike -> Dauntless Strike (Early sustained damage)
    Keen -> Quick -> Keen -> Quick -> Dauntless
    Double Coup -> Keen -> Precision -> Keen -> Dauntless
    B/S Parity -> Keen -> Fire -> Fire -> Fire -> Keen -> Dauntless.

    Again, don't know the actual DPS b/c I don't have a parse addon atm, nor would I 100% know how to use one if I did, but but the damage seems fairly constant, especially with B/S Parity upping the critical chance and damage of the fire spike stacks and the dauntless strike, while preserving some energy in the process. xD thoughts?

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    RIFT Guide Writer Muspel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aysander View Post
    It's a bit of a complex one, I think. My build for ST DPS is 51 BD, 10 NB, 5 RS. I don't have a parse addon atm so I have no clue what the actual DPS is, however I tend to hit roughly 500-2.2k depending on the ability. Not even in full T1

    For the ST rotation I do something like this...

    Blade Tempo -> Fire Spike -> Fire Spike -> Fire Spike -> Dauntless Strike (Early sustained damage)
    Keen -> Quick -> Keen -> Quick -> Dauntless
    Double Coup -> Keen -> Precision -> Keen -> Dauntless
    B/S Parity -> Keen -> Fire -> Fire -> Fire -> Keen -> Dauntless.

    Again, don't know the actual DPS b/c I don't have a parse addon atm, nor would I 100% know how to use one if I did, but but the damage seems fairly constant, especially with B/S Parity upping the critical chance and damage of the fire spike stacks and the dauntless strike, while preserving some energy in the process. xD thoughts?
    You have it very, very messed up.

    At its core, Bladedancer revolves around Deadly Dance procs from finishers. This boosts the damage of your next three builders. The offhand builders (Precision Strike and Quick Strike) do much more damage than the main hand builder (Keen Strike). The more combo points you have, the stronger the Deadly Dance proc is. This means that you want to use as many Deadly Dance charges as possible on offhand attacks after 5CP finishers.

    To do this, there's really only one option: Precision Strike->Keen Strike->Quick Strike->Keen Strike->Finisher. This gives you 5 combo points and lets you start off the next sequence with an offhand attack. During Dualism, you'll replace Precision Strike with a second Quick Strike (this will take you to six combo points, but is still worth it).

    Using Fiery Spike will not enable Quick Strike, so the only way to fit it in would be to replace PS with a QS+fiery spike. This means you spend 1 more GCD between each finisher, which means 20% less Deadly Dance procs.

    Fiery Spike is only worth using if you're out of melee range for whatever reason. In the three GCDs it takes to stack it up, you could use three BD builders, which benefit from the various Dance buffs, physical damage increases like Hack and Slash, and armor penetration from Combat Culmination.

    You also want to lead off with Blade and Soul Parity, not Blade Tempo. Not only is BT the weakest of the four dances, but B&SP also lets you stack up Duelist Pose much more quickly.

    You don't need to worry about conserving energy as Bladedancer. You'll never run out.

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    Plane Touched Aysander's Avatar
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    Ah, noted. Thanks for that, wanted to try something different compared to what I did w/ BD currently but at the same time I'm kinda glad that the awkward rotation was a bad move. xD

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    General of Telara spowers454's Avatar
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    Get RS out of the build, all BD is physical so you will get more out of sin as a subsoul with a better gift. And make sure your higher dps weapon is in your off hand.
    Last edited by spowers454; 11-05-2012 at 01:54 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by spowers454 View Post
    Get RS out of the build, all BD is physical so you will get more out of sin as a subsoul with a better gift. And make sure your higher dps weapon is in your off hand.
    So not true. The attack power and weapon damage bonus from both nightblade and rift stalker is a multiplicative bonus, where the physical damage from assassin and other trees is not. I see everyone everywhere stating this, but I've hit the dummies for hours on end and I know that their wrong. 2.5% drop for point in x soul is a small price to pay for multiplying damage bonuses as opposed to additive.

    Doubt me? Go hit the dummies and find out.

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    Shadowlander Digitai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kayos View Post
    So not true. The attack power and weapon damage bonus from both nightblade and rift stalker is a multiplicative bonus, where the physical damage from assassin and other trees is not. I see everyone everywhere stating this, but I've hit the dummies for hours on end and I know that their wrong. 2.5% drop for point in x soul is a small price to pay for multiplying damage bonuses as opposed to additive.

    Doubt me? Go hit the dummies and find out.
    Sin also gives u virulent poison; so overall its just better but 7sin/8nb would be even better
    Last edited by Digitai; 11-06-2012 at 04:36 AM.

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    RIFT Fan Site Operator Dunharrow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kayos View Post
    So not true. The attack power and weapon damage bonus from both nightblade and rift stalker is a multiplicative bonus, where the physical damage from assassin and other trees is not. I see everyone everywhere stating this, but I've hit the dummies for hours on end and I know that their wrong. 2.5% drop for point in x soul is a small price to pay for multiplying damage bonuses as opposed to additive.

    Doubt me? Go hit the dummies and find out.
    +damage in the soul trees is multiplicative with gifts. If it wasn't, it would be absolutely terrible, as everyone is getting near 50% damage increase from gifts. If you did test it, as you claim, then you did the math wrong.

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    Ascendant Galibier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dunharrow View Post
    +damage in the soul trees is multiplicative with gifts. If it wasn't, it would be absolutely terrible, as everyone is getting near 50% damage increase from gifts. If you did test it, as you claim, then you did the math wrong.
    Passives are not multiplicative but rather additive. Example...wilderness training in Ranger and murderous intent in Sin are additive with gifts.

    Toggled self buffs and proc buffs such as increased fire power, planar boost, emptiness, stalker phase, magnify pain etc are multiplicative.

    My eyes positively bled as I moved points around and just spammed the same damn ability over and over again to work out the differences. This was done to confirm the following dev post...

    Someone said the secret word! The % damage and healing modifiers are now divided into separate categories:

    Gifts and other passives
    Active, self buffs
    Targeted and raid buffs
    Content stuff (like a shrine granting you a buff or something)

    Debuffs are divided up similarly.

    Within the same group, they're additive. Between different groups, they are multiplicative.
    Last edited by Galibier; 11-06-2012 at 07:32 AM.
    Far better is it to dare mighty things, to win glorius triumphs, even though checkered by failure... than to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy nor suffer much, because they live in a gray twilight that knows not victory nor defeat.

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    RIFT Fan Site Operator Dunharrow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Galibier View Post
    Passives are not multiplicative but rather additive. Example...wilderness training in Ranger and murderous intent in Sin are additive with gifts.

    Toggled self buffs and proc buffs such as increased fire power, planar boost, emptiness, stalker phase, magnify pain etc are multiplicative.

    My eyes positively bled as I moved points around and just spammed the same damn ability over and over again to work out the differences. This was done to confirm the following dev post...
    That doesn't really gel with the fact that point-for-point +damage wins against weapon damage in most cases.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dunharrow View Post
    That doesn't really gel with the fact that point-for-point +damage wins against weapon damage in most cases.
    Sometimes it does sometimes it doesn't this is actually something that is variable based on progression tier and the other abilities in the soul. I am at work so I apologize that I can't use real numbers (on my phone) but I'll try to explain it without math (I may fail lol).

    Let's use Sin as an example. Sub soul ranger vs NB and MM. I get different results with ranger. Sometimes equal sometimes less than NB and MM. I know people who always get better with NB/MM others better with ranger. We all seem to be using the same rotation.

    The 5% in Crit has a noticeable impact so it skews results in some cases. Is it the base damage or the crit? This is then compounded with many due to gear. If you have meh armor and accessories but a decent weapon, weapon damage makes a larger proportion of your dps. Also the 5% additional crit will not have as large an impact as your total crit rate will be lower.

    I think you will find a point where total AP and how it relates to abilities vs weapons changes the equation and that this gets further compounded by going into crit in ranger. Me I swapped from raiding on a cleric to a rogue so I am a little behind on the gear curve so my results could well be different than yours. I was praying for a better beta buffer so I could get full ID gear but no such luck.

    This variability is going to get even worse once we get to 60. They stated part of SL was to reduce reliance on the rng of crit. However with crit power introduced crit will actually become MORE important.

    There is one test I want to do to help support this crit bias/gear realted theory but I haven't had the time. Build a sub build with ranger BUT go into enduring so crit is removed. Do the other build with MM but go into keen eye as this only boosts ranged damage. This way you have = gifts and you are only testing fire power with PI and wilderness. This would show which is better at different levels without the skew of crit.

    I work 60 hours this week so I probably won't get to it until monday at the earliest though. When I do I can post results.
    Far better is it to dare mighty things, to win glorius triumphs, even though checkered by failure... than to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy nor suffer much, because they live in a gray twilight that knows not victory nor defeat.

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    General of Telara spowers454's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kayos View Post
    Doubt me? Go hit the dummies and find out.
    I don't need to hit the dummies to know sin as a sub soul is > rs as one. I have spent more than my share of time on the dummies, on beta and live and still spend countless hours on the dummies testing. So what I like most people have learned is that rs just isn't an option as the 5 point sub soul that it use to be, except in pvp. I know it makes your stats look really pretty but its not going to out do sin as a BD sub soul, between the gift and the poison, rs just doesn't stand a chance.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dunharrow View Post
    That doesn't really gel with the fact that point-for-point +damage wins against weapon damage in most cases.
    I've found the same, 10% damage vs the ap weapon damage, the damage has been coming out ahead, not by much.
    Last edited by spowers454; 11-06-2012 at 10:42 AM.

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    Ascendant Galibier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spowers454 View Post
    I've found the same, 10% damage vs the ap weapon damage, the damage has been coming out ahead, not by much.
    That's why I think it is A LOT more complicated. I find it, on average, equal. Others find it less. You find it better but not by much. I know others who say it is clearly better. Sin is not a difficult build to run on a dummy and if everyone is using the same rotation but is coming up with different results there have to be additional variables that are coming into play.
    Far better is it to dare mighty things, to win glorius triumphs, even though checkered by failure... than to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy nor suffer much, because they live in a gray twilight that knows not victory nor defeat.

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    RIFT Fan Site Operator Dunharrow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Galibier View Post
    Sometimes it does sometimes it doesn't this is actually something that is variable based on progression tier and the other abilities in the soul. I am at work so I apologize that I can't use real numbers (on my phone) but I'll try to explain it without math (I may fail lol).

    Let's use Sin as an example. Sub soul ranger vs NB and MM. I get different results with ranger. Sometimes equal sometimes less than NB and MM. I know people who always get better with NB/MM others better with ranger. We all seem to be using the same rotation.

    The 5% in Crit has a noticeable impact so it skews results in some cases. Is it the base damage or the crit? This is then compounded with many due to gear. If you have meh armor and accessories but a decent weapon, weapon damage makes a larger proportion of your dps. Also the 5% additional crit will not have as large an impact as your total crit rate will be lower.

    I think you will find a point where total AP and how it relates to abilities vs weapons changes the equation and that this gets further compounded by going into crit in ranger. Me I swapped from raiding on a cleric to a rogue so I am a little behind on the gear curve so my results could well be different than yours. I was praying for a better beta buffer so I could get full ID gear but no such luck.

    This variability is going to get even worse once we get to 60. They stated part of SL was to reduce reliance on the rng of crit. However with crit power introduced crit will actually become MORE important.

    There is one test I want to do to help support this crit bias/gear realted theory but I haven't had the time. Build a sub build with ranger BUT go into enduring so crit is removed. Do the other build with MM but go into keen eye as this only boosts ranged damage. This way you have = gifts and you are only testing fire power with PI and wilderness. This would show which is better at different levels without the skew of crit.

    I work 60 hours this week so I probably won't get to it until monday at the earliest though. When I do I can post results.
    You could be onto something.

    I parsed it repeatedly with 51MM and found that the best subsoul was consistently 15 Ranger. Another rogue in my guild used the exact same rotation and was parsing better with 10 Ranger/5NB for the 10% AP/Weapon.

    The difference for me was about 150 DPS in favor of 15 Ranger. For him it was 150 DPS in favor of NB.

    Subtext: his gear is quite a bit better than mine. I am geared about like someone who is 4/8 ID and he is all relic'd out. However, the DPS on our ranged weapons is the same.

    One explanation for this is that at high levels of attack power, the AP talents actually surpass the +damage talents. This was always logical, but the breaking point appears to be within our grasp at this moment.

    Translating this a few weeks into SL, its logical to assume that everyone will do better with +damage talents until we start getting into very high levels of relative AP (again) and then AP/Weapon will win.

    We'll see, but this indicates to me that +damage is better for anyone who is not wearing mostly ID relics.
    Last edited by Dunharrow; 11-06-2012 at 10:59 AM.

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    RIFT Guide Writer Muspel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dunharrow View Post
    You could be onto something.

    I parsed it repeatedly with 51MM and found that the best subsoul was consistently 15 Ranger. Another rogue in my guild used the exact same rotation and was parsing better with 10 Ranger/5NB for the 10% AP/Weapon.

    The difference for me was about 150 DPS in favor of 15 Ranger. For him it was 150 DPS in favor of NB.

    Subtext: his gear is quite a bit better than mine. I am geared about like someone who is 4/8 ID and he is all relic'd out. However, the DPS on our ranged weapons is the same.

    One explanation for this is that at high levels of attack power, the AP talents actually surpass the +damage talents. This was always logical, but the breaking point appears to be within our grasp at this moment.

    Translating this a few weeks into SL, its logical to assume that everyone will do better with +damage talents until we start getting into very high levels of relative AP (again) and then AP/Weapon will win.

    We'll see, but this indicates to me that +damage is better for anyone who is not wearing mostly ID relics.
    It could also be a function of the difference between your weapon and the rest of your gear (or lack thereof).

    It's also worth noting that the value of damage vs. AP/WD talents will vary from soul to soul, depending on which bonuses are present in the talents you already have, which can confuse matters. For instance, Marksman has a lot of %-based damage increases, but not much in the way of AP boosts. This means that further passive %damage boosts are a less significant increase than they might be for other souls (which may or may not make %AP/WD a stronger option).
    Last edited by Muspel; 11-06-2012 at 04:23 PM.

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