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Thread: Are rogues where they should be?

  1. #1
    Plane Touched
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    Default Are rogues where they should be?

    In terms of DPS, are rogues where they should be? I know at level 50 we're getting out parsed by every other class, including clerics. I don't however know how we're doing at 60 because on open beta they never gave us a lvl 60 bump. Any input from people who have test results from classes at 60 would be good, with statistical data (of course, dev input is also always welcome).

    I'm just worried that rogues are going to be left behind in the new expo, because only the warrior and mage got dps souls which I've heard are doing exceedingly well, while the rogue got a wtfisthisthing soul that probably won't be too benifitial to our dps specs. We're already quite behind as of 1.11.

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    Ascendant MoonfireSpam's Avatar
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    At 50, the target mark is roughly 6k dps, which rogues are at... sorta.

    Ranged specs reaches 5.6-5.7ish, melee specs clock in at 6.5-6.7k with optimal gear with full raid buffs.

    Relic weapons vs non-relic ID weapons makes about 1-200 dps difference at the most. If you're fully clad in ID gear and can't reach those marks, its you (or your latency) screwing up.

    I've yet to see a cleric top 6.5k, though. It might just be that your clerics know their stuff better than your rogues do.
    So long, and thanks for all the fish~

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    Ascendant Galibier's Avatar
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    I'll be brutally honest. There are some issues in the rogue community, some of which are on these forums with the builds. People I know using in house builds or builds posted by specific contributors are hitting the targets. People using some of the very uninformed builds I see on the forums atm, they are missing the targets. right now the only callings that should be beating rogues are warriors and mages because both of them have builds that have some "issues."
    Far better is it to dare mighty things, to win glorius triumphs, even though checkered by failure... than to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy nor suffer much, because they live in a gray twilight that knows not victory nor defeat.

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    General of Telara
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    Indeed. Some War souls have imbalances to sort out, but that aside a big problem tends to come from the builds people are using. One thing the Warrior community has is a crazy bunch of dedicated people who will find every last inch of DPS potential from builds, these names are recognised and their guides trusted and used. In fact, they are a blessing and a curse, because if they weren't so good at finding the ideal builds and rotations, you'd find warriors much more equal with everyone else (aside from the broken abilities/specs) because the more standard builds and rotations would be used

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    General of Telara spowers454's Avatar
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    I think they are exactly where they should be and honestly it sounds like your rogues are coming up short. Aside from the busted warrior spec of the week rogue dps is right in line with everyone of the other classes. Even close with warriors not in broke specs. I see MM's going toe to toe with mages on the meters and and even see a dps cleric up there, not sure what their top dps spec is tbh just see green names on my meter now. Solid melee rogues are making every class work to keep up, in a couple different specs. Honestly just ignore the broke specs those will be fixed, seems trion wanted all dps to be close to the same and it looks like they have done it. Thats how it should be to, no more if your not class X in spec X then forget the dps meter, it comes down to player skill vs skill.

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    Ascendant Fujitasix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spowers454 View Post
    I think they are exactly where they should be and honestly it sounds like your rogues are coming up short. Aside from the busted warrior spec of the week rogue dps is right in line with everyone of the other classes. Even close with warriors not in broke specs. I see MM's going toe to toe with mages on the meters and and even see a dps cleric up there, not sure what their top dps spec is tbh just see green names on my meter now. Solid melee rogues are making every class work to keep up, in a couple different specs. Honestly just ignore the broke specs those will be fixed, seems trion wanted all dps to be close to the same and it looks like they have done it. Thats how it should be to, no more if your not class X in spec X then forget the dps meter, it comes down to player skill vs skill.
    EPIC FAIL.

    There's no hyperbole, doom n gloom, or finger pointing in this reply and it won't cause reason for additional drama.

    Your DPS needs reduced, you've killed the thread.
    Currently playing Beermaid lvl 65 War

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    RIFT Fan Site Operator Dunharrow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Galibier View Post
    I'll be brutally honest. There are some issues in the rogue community, some of which are on these forums with the builds. People I know using in house builds or builds posted by specific contributors are hitting the targets. People using some of the very uninformed builds I see on the forums atm, they are missing the targets. right now the only callings that should be beating rogues are warriors and mages because both of them have builds that have some "issues."
    People like you are toxic to the rogue forums. You're taking shots at people who are regular contributors here (probably me) while keeping your supposedly-superior specs a secret. This is especially true of someone who is halfway through ID, talking down to people who've cleared it. Either back up your claims with useful contributions, or shut it. No one is impressed by your flaccid display of arrogance.

    I am happy to help you or anyone else who needs to improve their rotation or wants me to walk them through a boss in ID, but I'm tired of people claiming to have the inside track on DPS, while refusing to share any information. It reeks of ego.
    Last edited by Dunharrow; 11-06-2012 at 07:24 AM.

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    Ascendant Credo's Avatar
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    Are we talking strictly PvE?
    Even free cost too much now

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    Ascendant Zazen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dunharrow View Post
    People like you are toxic to the rogue forums. You're taking shots at people who are regular contributors here (probably me) while keeping your supposedly-superior specs a secret. This is especially true of someone who is halfway through ID, talking down to people who've cleared it. Either back up your claims with useful contributions, or shut it. No one is impressed by your flaccid display of arrogance.

    I am happy to help you or anyone else who needs to improve their rotation or wants me to walk them through a boss in ID, but I'm tired of people claiming to have the inside track on DPS, while refusing to share any information. It reeks of ego.
    I'm fairly sure you misconstrued what Galibier posted. He said:

    People I know using in house builds or builds posted by specific contributors are hitting the targets
    I assume he means that people using their own theorycrafted and tested builds are hitting the dps targets as well as those that follow the guides of specific contributors.

    The failure he alludes to, I believe, is in the erroneous guides that have been posted. Just take a loot at some of the Bladedancer guides that have been posted (not yours nor Mayi's) and you'll see what I mean.

  10. #10
    Ascendant Galibier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zazen View Post
    I'm fairly sure you misconstrued what Galibier posted. He said:

    I assume he means that people using their own theorycrafted and tested builds are hitting the dps targets as well as those that follow the guides of specific contributors.

    The failure he alludes to, I believe, is in the erroneous guides that have been posted. Just take a loot at some of the Bladedancer guides that have been posted (not yours nor Mayi's) and you'll see what I mean.
    Pretty much.

    @ Dun... some of your builds based on the first beta were questionable i won't lie about that. That said you are not a dumb guy and you evolve your ideas like any smart and decent player does. An example of this which I applaud is BD. You originally had the combo builder rotation macro'd in part. Someone pointed out the error in this. Rather than remaining silent as many do, you tested the contention then came back and said "damn you are right." You are like me in that regard. You find something that works. If people say something is better you test it. If it is better you say you are right, if you testing shows the opposite to sgow your parse and say "I showed you mine now show me yours."

    The only thing I ever have real question about is your attitude. Lets be honest you are not immune to ego attacks either. Your response here is kinda an example of that. Like I told guildies about Ahov the other day, I am not guilded with him so I could ultimately give a crap about his ego as long as his data is good. Unless the ego gets wrongly inflicted on me, then I get a tad cranky.

    That out of the way I was referring to the following....

    There are others who do not evolve or if they do they remain silent because they do not have the courage to say "ooops." We still have people saying RS is better than NB or Assassin as a sub soul for dps, a bard guide that made my head hurt (not Mir's), people who keep trying to reinvent the wheel when it comes to the BD rotation etc.

    These are the people I refer to. If you have a better mouse trap post your parses. If someones else's idea is better give credit to where credit is due and issue a mae culpa. Basically all i want is for people to act like adults should irl.
    Last edited by Galibier; 11-06-2012 at 08:39 AM.
    Far better is it to dare mighty things, to win glorius triumphs, even though checkered by failure... than to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy nor suffer much, because they live in a gray twilight that knows not victory nor defeat.

  11. #11
    RIFT Fan Site Operator Dunharrow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Galibier View Post
    Pretty much.

    @ Dun... some of your builds based on the first beta were questionable i won't lie about that. That said you are not a dumb guy and you evolve your ideas like any smart and decent player does. An example of this which I applaud is BD. You originally had the combo builder rotation macro'd in part. Someone pointed out the error in this. Rather than remaining silent as many do, you tested the contention then came back and said "damn you are right." You are like me in that regard. You find something that works. If people say something is better you test it. If it is better you say you are right, if you testing shows the opposite to sgow your parse and say "I showed you mine now show me yours."

    The only thing I ever have real question about is your attitude. Lets be honest you are not immune to ego attacks either. Your response here is kinda an example of that. Like I told guildies about Ahov the other day, I am not guilded with him so I could ultimately give a crap about his ego as long as his data is good. Unless the ego gets wrongly inflicted on me, then I get a tad cranky.

    That out of the way I was referring to the following....

    There are others who do not evolve or if they do they remain silent because they do not have the courage to say "ooops." We still have people saying RS is better than NB or Assassin as a sub soul for dps, a bard guide that made my head hurt (not Mir's), people who keep trying to reinvent the wheel when it comes to the BD rotation etc.

    These are the people I refer to. If you have a better mouse trap post your parses. If someones else's idea is better give credit to where credit is due and issue a mae culpa. Basically all i want is for people to act like adults should irl.
    Fair enough. I try to be as transparent as possible. I never say things like "I know the answer that you're all searching for, but I'm not going to tell you." A lot of people floating around here do, and its annoying.

    I mistakenly lumped you into that category because I am prone to jumping to conclusions, and I do have an ego, as you mentioned. Sorry for grouping you in there, but those people do need a scolding.

  12. #12
    General of Telara spowers454's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fujitasix View Post
    EPIC FAIL.

    There's no hyperbole, doom n gloom, or finger pointing in this reply and it won't cause reason for additional drama.

    Your DPS needs reduced, you've killed the thread.
    Didn't seem to work though lol

  13. #13
    Ascendant Galibier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dunharrow View Post
    Fair enough. I try to be as transparent as possible. I never say things like "I know the answer that you're all searching for, but I'm not going to tell you." A lot of people floating around here do, and its annoying.

    I mistakenly lumped you into that category because I am prone to jumping to conclusions, and I do have an ego, as you mentioned. Sorry for grouping you in there, but those people do need a scolding.
    I think the problem is those of us who sit at dummies all have egos lol. Sometimes that means we miss some very important things. First. These games and the builds are not rocket science at the training dummy. Anyone with a basic understanding can download ACT and, with the current switch to 51/61 point balancing, with enough time come up with the same build as someone else or an equal build.

    Example on first beta I found an RS based Sin build that was doing as good dps as the others. It turns out it was broke though because planar boost was giving 20% multiplicative damage rather than 10%. However it took only looking at a parser to figure it out and see the damage was equal and look at my buff and see the stacks were giving a double damage bonus. I was not a genius in figuring this out.

    What I tend to notice is the first person to post a build sees it as "theirs". It's like Tesla vs Marconi. It's still argued who came up with practical radio first but Marconi got his patent first so...
    Far better is it to dare mighty things, to win glorius triumphs, even though checkered by failure... than to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy nor suffer much, because they live in a gray twilight that knows not victory nor defeat.

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    Ascendant Mayi's Avatar
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    Back to the OP - I have no idea what the dps targets are for each class. Just when you think you know what the devs are doing they buff something you already thought was OP. I can understand buffing something that's not hitting the dps target, but when something's buffed that's already doing better then everyone else you have to wonder wth they're doing; i.e SC and RB.

    Maybe the targets for each class is different, so warriors are supposed to do more damage then everyone else. People assume they're going for equality but maybe they aren't, they're going for diversity... but I still don't see how rogues would fit into their scheme if each class has a niche.
    I rite a gooded guide for rouges.

    NB-Sin Guide - http://forums.riftgame.com/rift-gene...-sin-spec.html

  15. #15
    Ascendant MoonfireSpam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mayi View Post
    Back to the OP - I have no idea what the dps targets are for each class. Just when you think you know what the devs are doing they buff something you already thought was OP. I can understand buffing something that's not hitting the dps target, but when something's buffed that's already doing better then everyone else you have to wonder wth they're doing; i.e SC and RB.

    Maybe the targets for each class is different, so warriors are supposed to do more damage then everyone else. People assume they're going for equality but maybe they aren't, they're going for diversity... but I still don't see how rogues would fit into their scheme if each class has a niche.
    You can probably assume that those balancing changes were made with lv 60 in mind, being this close to the expansion dropping 'n all.

    Lv 50 balance becomes moot in 6 days.
    So long, and thanks for all the fish~

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