+ Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 3 1 2 3 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 31

Thread: BiS List

  1. #1
    Rift Disciple Elge's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    117

    Default BiS List

    Are either of the BiS lists (either Qan's or the Upgrade Planner) updated for 1.11 yet, or are there any alternatives out there that represent the new changes?

  2. #2
    RIFT Guide Writer Zyzyx's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Posts
    5,040

    Quote Originally Posted by Daglar View Post
    When time allows I'll be looking at the issue with the class guys.

  3. #3
    Rift Disciple Elge's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    117

    Default

    Thank you.

  4. #4
    General of Telara
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    915

    Default

    I've personally just made my own spreadsheet and used a ratio of 2AP : 0.65CRIT
    Qan's list used a ratio of 2 : 1 when below soft crit cap and 2 : 0.2 (or 10 : 1) when above soft crit cap. This came from the fact that Crit rating became 1/5 as useful when above the crit cap. Since every Rogue was fine and dandy with how he created his spreadsheet, doing so by applying these modified weights shouldn't be cause for alarm.

    I'm not really sure of whether the new conversion of AP -> wDPS (if there was one?) so seeing as how we're back to being below crit cap you can start from the basis of 2 : 1.

    I adjusted the weight of Crit just by looking how how Crit in general has become less potent than it was before 1.11. I've also completely ignored how Crit Power could potentially weigh in favor of Crit. I got the 0.65 by comparing the pre-1.11 %Crit/Crit Rating ratio to the one we have now.

    Code:
    Before 1.11
    45% / 1187 Rating = 0.0379% / Rating
    
    After 1.11
    45% / 1794 Rating = 0.0251% / Rating
    
    New Weight = Old Weight * (New Ratio / Old Ratio) = Old Weight * 0.65
    Using the exact same way Qan calculated gear score...

    SCORE = AP*2 + CRIT*0.65

    This of course takes into account how STR/DEX is affected by Resonance and how it converts to AP and CRIT respectively.

    That gives you a base score that you can further increase its magnitude by multiplying it by a summation of percentage factors. Doing this really is pointless in my opinion as you're going to have a hard time finding an piece of gear that is BiS for one spec and not for another spec (perhaps excluding trinkets and even then we've seen how volatile the results are). The difference in total AP values from various high-end pieces of gear isn't large enough for that to happen and I have tried it in my spreadsheet. The hierarchy of pieces doesn't change if you apply the factors so all you are doing is inflating the score. You can see evidence of this in Qan's spreadsheet as well.
    Last edited by Vitto; 10-31-2012 at 09:01 PM.

  5. #5
    Rift Disciple
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    145

    Default

    if anyone wants to help me out I can take the same set up qan had and make a new bis list for storm legion. I think taking the new AP percentages from above I can start working on it, but I honestly don't know how we are gojnf to handle crit power

  6. #6
    General of Telara
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    915

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by crowgora211232 View Post
    if anyone wants to help me out I can take the same set up qan had and make a new bis list for storm legion. I think taking the new AP percentages from above I can start working on it, but I honestly don't know how we are gojnf to handle crit power
    Well I certainly don't have the desire to create a good looking spreadsheet full of colors and the sort. I certainly don't want to keep it updated so someone can certainly take the reign on that.

    One way to handle Crit Power (granted it is possible to achieve the required ratings) is to create separate columns based on your Crit Power:

    Code:
    1.5x	1.6x	1.7x	1.8x	1.9x	2.0x
    For each column you are assuming that Crit Rating becomes more valuable by some arbitrary percentage. So one way to do it would be to take the CRIT component in the base score and multiply it by 1.1, 1.2, 1.3, 1.4 and 1.5 for the respective columns. So at a Crit Power rating that gets your crits doing 1.6x damage you can use

    Code:
    SCORE = 2*AP + 1.1*(CRIT*0.65)
    So in that example CRIT is 10% more valuable than it was when you're at the base Crit Power. Though you should be able to achieve the same thing by finding out the ratio of
    (Crit Multiplier Bonus / Crit Power Rating)
    Call that ratio P

    Code:
    SCORE = 2*AP + [1+(P*C.PowerRating)]*CRIT*0.65

  7. #7
    General of Telara
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    915

    Default

    Sorry the above way is probably a bad way to handle Crit Power once we get above the soft cap. Crit Power wouldn't become less valuable because you are at cap. After that point some way of creating a separate term for Crit Power would be a better idea.

  8. #8
    Ascendant MoonfireSpam's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Posts
    4,730

    Default

    Anyone with the proper background in the math involved in calculating optimization between three variables (ap/sp, crit, crit power) will eventually arrive at the realization that a spreadsheet listing of gear and ranking is going to be completely useless and essentially trash.

    The rest of you are just going to have to take our word for it.
    So long, and thanks for all the fish~

  9. #9
    Plane Walker Araenn's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    419

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by MoonfireSpam View Post
    Anyone with the proper background in the math involved in calculating optimization between three variables (ap/sp, crit, crit power) will eventually arrive at the realization that a spreadsheet listing of gear and ranking is going to be completely useless and essentially trash.

    The rest of you are just going to have to take our word for it.
    Basically this. I've been dealing with similar problems for a Mage BiS, and there are two methods of dealing with it: disregard crit power and use the old two-variable system (that can be flatly optimized), or do not use a ranked list and instead use an upgrade calculator that accounts for existing conditions (making the 3-variable system solvable)

    The first method is actually surprisingly effective if the relative value of crit power is low (in the range of 26+ rating per percent) the second is more effective at the level 50 conversion factors (for mages it's 7 cp per %, not sure if rogues are different)

    For the purposes of an upgrade calculator, 1% crit power is weighted equal to your current crit chance % In decimal form. The piece being compared should use the crit chance % after modifiers for the other stats on the gear. (PM me if you want the math, its a bit complex)
    Last edited by Araenn; 10-31-2012 at 11:20 PM.
    Windstorm - Mage - Faeblight US
    Hi, I'm back!
    Faeblight since CB3

  10. #10
    Rift Disciple
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    145

    Default

    I'm think that just sticking to the AP/crit rating may be the best way, and just list the crit power amid let the players decide. I will look into more when I get off work and see what I can come up with.

    if anyone wants to help out with this project let me know, once I get a rough draft of a spreadsheet I will post up the link for everyone

  11. #11
    Ascendant Rounded's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    2,421

    Default

    Crit power will become a must-have alongside with crit chance, we really only need an AP list to use after caps happen at crit department.

  12. #12
    Ascendant Mayi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Posts
    3,660

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by MoonfireSpam View Post
    Anyone with the proper background in the math involved in calculating optimization between three variables (ap/sp, crit, crit power) will eventually arrive at the realization that a spreadsheet listing of gear and ranking is going to be completely useless and essentially trash.

    The rest of you are just going to have to take our word for it.
    Wasn't there an add-on that calculated the ap/crit coefficient (how much a point of ap vs crit was worth to total dps)? I know it would be difficult to math it out, those things are always best left to a program.
    I rite a gooded guide for rouges.

    NB-Sin Guide - http://forums.riftgame.com/rift-gene...-sin-spec.html

  13. #13
    Rift Disciple
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    145

    Default

    is anyone here in contact with Qan? I was going to use his BiS spreadsheet as an outline, but I kinda wanted his permission first. I can't send him a pm on the forums

  14. #14
    General of Telara
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    915

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by MoonfireSpam View Post
    Anyone with the proper background in the math involved in calculating optimization between three variables (ap/sp, crit, crit power) will eventually arrive at the realization that a spreadsheet listing of gear and ranking is going to be completely useless and essentially trash.

    The rest of you are just going to have to take our word for it.
    Well this is hardly optimization but it is a certain method of quantifying value. Unless we got the equation (or someone spent the time to figure out the equation) for every abilities damage then you can't perfectly optimize without making too many assumptions. The BiS List before 1.11 and the pseudo one I've made is just a list where we've thrown arbitrary values to stats and weighted them. Regardless, the mental process you or any other player goes through when deciding if a piece of gear is an upgrade is probably:

    1. See how much stats I gain/lose
    2. Determine if it is worth switching from current piece to new piece
    3. If the difference is really small you think a little harder
    4. You come to some conclusion based on reasoning.

    If you didn't flip a coin to decide which piece to use then that "reasoning" is you've attached your own values to the stats you're considering. Doing a gear score is in essence no different but it makes sure that "reasoning" section remains constant and isn't subject to the situation at hand. Whether that is a better way to evaluate a piece of gear is up to the user. There is no confidence interval with these numbers because there is no mathematical reasoning behind how a piece of gear gets a score. So, it's far easier for you to say that this is useless rather than me saying its useful. All of this is just arbitrary numbers being back up by arbitrary reasoning. However I'm sure you know how benchmarking products can be very arbitrary or very scientific depending on the scope and depth, and that benchmarking products is an important tool in getting started for some projects.

  15. #15
    Rift Disciple
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    145

    Default

    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...V9qMHdGWEtvSXc

    work in progress using qans set up

+ Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 3 1 2 3 LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts