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Thread: bug with Guardian Phase or not !!

  1. #1
    Soulwalker
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    Default bug with Guardian Phase or not !!

    hi,

    i noticed that i become only 7879 Armor instead of 100% Armor Bonus
    and the same with Resitance only 72 or less instead of 20% bonus Resi

    http://i.imgur.com/KuOQr.jpg
    http://i.imgur.com/2tg76.jpg


    has anyone even noticed this?

    mfg

  2. #2
    RIFT Guide Writer Muspel's Avatar
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    I assume it's additive with the passive gift and talent bonuses, rather than multiplicative. What's your armor and resist in a 0/0/0 spec?

  3. #3
    Soulwalker
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    mh ok,

    0/0/0 soul

    armor 7876
    and 395 fire resi so 20% =+79

    thats so lame

  4. #4
    Telaran Mammothtruk's Avatar
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    so wait... the passive for the soul and the tank buff from the soul dont stack? so what is the point of the buff other than aggro(and apparently that isnt even that good compared to other tanks)?

  5. #5
    RIFT Guide Writer Muspel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mammothtruk View Post
    so wait... the passive for the soul and the tank buff from the soul dont stack? so what is the point of the buff other than aggro(and apparently that isnt even that good compared to other tanks)?
    They stack. It's just that they stack additively, rather than multiplicatively.

    Let me illustrate the difference with an example. Let's say you have a base armor of 1000, and two 75% bonuses. If they stack additively, then each 75% bonus adds 750 armor (which is 75% of the base amount, obviously). Your final armor value would be 1000 + (1000*.75)+(1000*.75).

    If they stack multiplicatively, then you get 1000*1.75*1.75=3062.5 armor. When things stack in this way, each individual bonus makes every other bonus that much stronger, which is probably why they avoided it in this case. This way, Guardian Phase remains equally effective, regardless of how many points you put into Riftstalker.

  6. #6
    Telaran Mammothtruk's Avatar
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    oh well that makes sense when you explain it... that should be some sort of sticky explaining that so when people say it they are confused... like me.

  7. #7
    Ascendant Primalthirst's Avatar
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    If it helps, every single %Armor is additive, every %Resist is additive and every %Endurance is additive.\
    They all work the same for every spec in every class.

    % Damage Reduction is supposed to function in specific stacking groups, but I'm not entirely certain it does. I'm doing some testing this weekend but there's too many people on Beta I'm getting 50k+ ms
    Nope.

  8. #8
    RIFT Guide Writer Muspel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Primalthirst View Post
    If it helps, every single %Armor is additive, every %Resist is additive and every %Endurance is additive.\
    They all work the same for every spec in every class.

    % Damage Reduction is supposed to function in specific stacking groups, but I'm not entirely certain it does. I'm doing some testing this weekend but there's too many people on Beta I'm getting 50k+ ms
    Most of it should be testable on live, actually.

  9. #9
    Ascendant Primalthirst's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Muspel View Post
    Most of it should be testable on live, actually.
    It's MUCH easier to test on the Beta shard for reasons I can't go into.
    Nope.

  10. #10
    Rift Master
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    Uhm, Muspel, while you got addiditvely right, you have multiplicative completely wrong.

    Let's take your example of 1000 armor and two 75% bonuses again:

    Additive:
    1000 + (1000*0.75) + (1000*0.75) -> 1000 + 750 + 750 = 2500

    Multiplicative:
    1000 + (1000*(0.75*0.75)) -> 1000 + (1000*0.5625) -> 1000 + 562.5 = 1562.5


    This shows why additive is much better than multiplicative. It's also why pretty much all games use Multiplicative for resist stacking: it prevents you from ever going above 100%.

    50% base resists, 2 100% resist bonuses (which obviously, with your math, would put it above 100% resists):

    50% + (50*(1*1)) -> 50 + (50*1) -> 50 + 50 = 100%

  11. #11
    RIFT Guide Writer Muspel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mandarb View Post
    Multiplicative:
    1000 + (1000*(0.75*0.75)) -> 1000 + (1000*0.5625) -> 1000 + 562.5 = 1562.5
    No. That's not how it works.

    Because it's a 75% BONUS, which means 1+.75 (the 1 is the base amount, the .75 is the bonus). If multiplicative bonuses stacked in this way, then talents like Planar Boost would actually lower your damage output by reducing the effect of anything that it stacks multiplicatively with (such as the Gifts, since they're from different buff stacking groups).

    You may be thinking of mitigation stacking, where the numbers are reversed, because it reduces things rather than increasing them. For instance, if you have 5% and 10% stacking additively, you determine damage taken by doing 1-.1-.05=85% damage taken, while multiplicative stacking would be 1*(1-.1)*(1-.05)=.855%. In that situation, additive is better due to the relative increase-- getting 25% extra mitigation when you're at 50% will halve your damage taken.

    But that would only apply if we were looking at flat %mitigation effects, rather than combat rating stats such as Armor or Resists.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mandarb View Post
    50% base resists, 2 100% resist bonuses (which obviously, with your math, would put it above 100% resists):

    50% + (50*(1*1)) -> 50 + (50*1) -> 50 + 50 = 100%
    This would only be true if resistance gave linear returns. It doesn't.

    At 311 life resist in my MM spec, I resist 39.07% of incoming damage. At 793 resist in my tanking spec, I resist 62.05% of incoming damage. That's very clearly not linear returns, because if it were, then I'd be at more than 78% resistance. I could double my resistance again, and I still wouldn't reach 100% mitigation, because resists are an asymptotic curve to avoid the stat becoming better and better as you get more.

    Armor works the same way. My friend Fasc actually worked out the formula way back when Rift launched: Damage Reduction = (Armor) / (Armor + 120*Level + 500). Let's illustrate this with some numbers.

    0 armor gives you 0 mitigation. 1000 armor gives you 13.3% mitigation. 2000 gives you 23.5%. 3000 gives you 31%. You can see how each subsequent 1000 armor is giving you less and less absolute reduction (but still ends up being roughly as valuable due to relative increases.
    Last edited by Muspel; 10-21-2012 at 05:44 AM.

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