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  Click here to go to the first Rift Team post in this thread.   Thread: Riftstalker Feedback (1.11)

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    RIFT Guide Writer Muspel's Avatar
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    Default Riftstalker Feedback (1.11)

    I'm not really looking too much at damage/health/avoidance numbers compared to the other tanks here. Instead, I'm giving feedback on the concepts and mechanics of the changes.

    Combo points still don't matter to Riftstalkers. This isn't a game-breaking issue, but it's pretty boring when your rotation doesn't matter much. The only finisher that changes anything other than damage is Power of the Planes, and that's only used once a minute. Changing the Riftstalker 4pc synergy crystal bonus to a self-heal from finishers might be a good way to address this.

    From a DPS hybrid build standpoint, the talent tree could use some restructuring. Stalker Phase and Ruthless Stalker seem really deep for DPS-oriented talents, to the point that I doubt they'll ever see any use in PvE. There's some PvP uses I can see, but on the whole, the soul just doesn't synergize well enough to be used for anything other than tanking. Again, this isn't the end of the world, but switching the location of a few talents would probably be a good idea.

    Some of the new talents just seem... bizarre. Planar Boost is probably the best example here-- much like Stalker Phase, it's too deep for DPS specs, and even if you did pick it up, finishers are such a big part of rogue DPS that I'm not sure if it's even a DPS gain to stack it up.

    Planar Splash isn't bad, but it seems like a solution in search of a problem. Rogue tank AoE is plenty high as it is (and we already hit everything constantly with Planar Vortex), so this just seems redundantl. I'd like to see an ability that fills a different niche-- for instance, what if it instead made your Memory Capture emit a Planar Vortex as well? That would give rogues a way to gather AoE on distant add spawns if you planned ahead.

    Planar Rejuvenation is really, really weak, especially for a capstone talent. In ID gear, it's healing me for 274 every second. Even in an expert dungeon, that's terrible, but in raids, it's laughable. If you try to make a hybrid soloing spec, it's even worse, because your health will be that much lower. Changing it into an instant heal every time you teleport (maybe 5-8% of your health?) would be much more worthwhile. I'd also recommend adding alternate AP scaling, so that it either heals you for a % of your health or some ratio of AP, whichever is higher-- that way, soloing specs get some use out of it.

    Shadow Guard's rework is interesting. I like the concept, but I'm a bit concerned with how it'll work on stronger bosses. For a heavy-hitter like Ituziel, a 15% absorb is just gonna get leapfrogged if you're already under 30%. On the other hand, if boss damage relative to tank HP is getting toned down in Storm Legion, then that shouldn't be an issue. Raising the ratio of damage absorbed but reducing the actual absorb cap might be wise.

    Planebound Aegis is either really cool or really bad. I can't tell who it damages on detonation from the tooltip: your target? Everyone around you? Yourself? Clear up the tooltip, and if it's the third, then please redesign it.

    Power of the Planes is great.

    Getting an AoE finisher in Wrath of the Planes is nice. Not a whole lot to say about this one, either. Again, rogues didn't really need more AoE, but unlike Planar Splash, this feels more original compared to the old kit.

    Soul Coalescence looks really, really cool. The tooltip should say how long the stacks last, though.

    Quick question for any devs that may know the answer: %mitigation talents such as Bolster, Phantom Blow, and Exceptional Resilience-- do they still stack additively? I've been trying to test it, but the incredibly small amounts makes it really hard to figure it out. I assume Rift Guard is still multiplicative with everything else. Getting confirmation on this will let me run survivability calculations to test out tank balance.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Muspel View Post
    Some of the new talents just seem... bizarre. Planar Boost is probably the best example here-- much like Stalker Phase, it's too deep for DPS specs, and even if you did pick it up, finishers are such a big part of rogue DPS that I'm not sure if it's even a DPS gain to stack it up.
    Planar Boost isn't bad for tanking because once you stack it up, you only need to refresh it with one additional hit once per 30secs. Not bad for 10% damage increase.

    I'd be more prone to ask about the other pure DPS points that are even further into the tree: Stalker Phase and Ruthless Stalker are both DPS talents that are way too deep in the tree to hybrid as a DPS.
    I don't understand why Riot is pushing to stop hybrids from going onto the cleric tank tree, but pushing the rogues to do so.

    I can understand Constant Deviation being there so that you can add some DPS whenever you're not tanking something, but for 95% of fights, it's useless.

    It's not so prominent in the rogue tree, but it seems like all the tank specs in SL have more of a DPS with mitigation CD's than just having mitigation in them (especially warrior)
    Last edited by Falsedemise; 10-16-2012 at 12:33 PM.

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    RIFT Guide Writer TheGrinnz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Falsedemise View Post
    Planar Boost isn't bad for tanking because once you stack it up, you only need to refresh it with one additional hit once per 30secs. Not bad for 10% damage increase.

    I'd be more prone to ask about the other pure DPS points that are even further into the tree: Stalker Phase and Ruthless Stalker are both DPS talents that are way too deep in the tree to hybrid as a DPS.
    I don't understand why Riot is pushing to stop hybrids from going onto the cleric tank tree, but pushing the rogues to do so.

    I can understand Constant Deviation being there so that you can add some DPS whenever you're not tanking something, but for 95% of fights, it's useless.

    It's not so prominent in the rogue tree, but it seems like all the tank specs in SL have more of a DPS with mitigation CD's than just having mitigation in them (especially warrior)
    I'm not sure who Riot is, but across the board they are designing tanks to do more damage, perhaps lessening the need for hybrids at all.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Muspel View Post
    I'm not really looking too much at damage/health/avoidance numbers compared to the other tanks here. Instead, I'm giving feedback on the concepts and mechanics of the changes.

    Combo points still don't matter to Riftstalkers. This isn't a game-breaking issue, but it's pretty boring when your rotation doesn't matter much. The only finisher that changes anything other than damage is Power of the Planes, and that's only used once a minute. Changing the Riftstalker 4pc synergy crystal bonus to a self-heal from finishers might be a good way to address this.

    From a DPS hybrid build standpoint, the talent tree could use some restructuring. Stalker Phase and Ruthless Stalker seem really deep for DPS-oriented talents, to the point that I doubt they'll ever see any use in PvE. There's some PvP uses I can see, but on the whole, the soul just doesn't synergize well enough to be used for anything other than tanking. Again, this isn't the end of the world, but switching the location of a few talents would probably be a good idea.

    Some of the new talents just seem... bizarre. Planar Boost is probably the best example here-- much like Stalker Phase, it's too deep for DPS specs, and even if you did pick it up, finishers are such a big part of rogue DPS that I'm not sure if it's even a DPS gain to stack it up.

    Planar Splash isn't bad, but it seems like a solution in search of a problem. Rogue tank AoE is plenty high as it is (and we already hit everything constantly with Planar Vortex), so this just seems redundantl. I'd like to see an ability that fills a different niche-- for instance, what if it instead made your Memory Capture emit a Planar Vortex as well? That would give rogues a way to gather AoE on distant add spawns if you planned ahead.

    Planar Rejuvenation is really, really weak, especially for a capstone talent. In ID gear, it's healing me for 274 every second. Even in an expert dungeon, that's terrible, but in raids, it's laughable. If you try to make a hybrid soloing spec, it's even worse, because your health will be that much lower. Changing it into an instant heal every time you teleport (maybe 5-8% of your health?) would be much more worthwhile. I'd also recommend adding alternate AP scaling, so that it either heals you for a % of your health or some ratio of AP, whichever is higher-- that way, soloing specs get some use out of it.

    Shadow Guard's rework is interesting. I like the concept, but I'm a bit concerned with how it'll work on stronger bosses. For a heavy-hitter like Ituziel, a 15% absorb is just gonna get leapfrogged if you're already under 30%. On the other hand, if boss damage relative to tank HP is getting toned down in Storm Legion, then that shouldn't be an issue. Raising the ratio of damage absorbed but reducing the actual absorb cap might be wise.

    Planebound Aegis is either really cool or really bad. I can't tell who it damages on detonation from the tooltip: your target? Everyone around you? Yourself? Clear up the tooltip, and if it's the third, then please redesign it.

    Power of the Planes is great.

    Getting an AoE finisher in Wrath of the Planes is nice. Not a whole lot to say about this one, either. Again, rogues didn't really need more AoE, but unlike Planar Splash, this feels more original compared to the old kit.

    Soul Coalescence looks really, really cool. The tooltip should say how long the stacks last, though.

    Quick question for any devs that may know the answer: %mitigation talents such as Bolster, Phantom Blow, and Exceptional Resilience-- do they still stack additively? I've been trying to test it, but the incredibly small amounts makes it really hard to figure it out. I assume Rift Guard is still multiplicative with everything else. Getting confirmation on this will let me run survivability calculations to test out tank balance.
    Bolster and Exceptional Resilience are passive buffs, so they are within the passive group and additive to each other. Phantom Blow is active, so they are within the active group. Different groups are multiplicative to one another.

    Planebound Aegis and Soul Coalescence are reworked to something better, but that's for SL.

    Stalker Phase, Planar Boost and Constant Deviation create opportunities for DPS hybrids and also allow Riftstalkers to switch to DPS mode (Stalker Phase and Constant Deviation) in encounters where a tank switch is required.

  5. #5
    RIFT Guide Writer TheGrinnz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ailion View Post
    Stalker Phase, Planar Boost and Constant Deviation create opportunities for DPS hybrids and also allow Riftstalkers to switch to DPS mode (Stalker Phase and Constant Deviation) in encounters where a tank switch is required.
    An interesting concept but there's one thing that's kept me from really trying this tactic (at least regarding Cleric tanks): switching back to the tank stance leaves you at the lower amount of health and you have to be healed up.

  6. #6
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    I do like the Constant Deviation been trying to find away to work it into a build, maybe next bloodstalker adaptation.

    Thanks for the info Ailion
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    Planar Boost and Stalker Phase are multiplicative which means they are worth a lot more than passive damage buffs. Also Planar Boost tooltip is messed up again, it gives a stack on abilities that give you the 5th combo point OR if you use a combo point generating ability while already at 5 combo points. Moving the blink related dps buffs lower in the tree might put us into the same situation as we are now when we need those blinks for the highest dps. I think blink specs will see use in pvp at least if not in pve.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheGrinnz View Post
    An interesting concept but there's one thing that's kept me from really trying this tactic (at least regarding Cleric tanks): switching back to the tank stance leaves you at the lower amount of health and you have to be healed up.
    As long as you don't change stances the second you need to tank, it shouldn't be too much of an issue in raid. Of course the ideal case is that toggling between tanking phase and dps/healing phase should do a relative HP transition and likewise to a relative HP transition on the way back.

    So if the tank had 30K HP and was at 90% HP while in tank stance, when he switched to DPS stance with 15K max HP, he would still be at 90% HP. So 27K ->13.5K and when switching back into tank stance, it would go 13.5K(90% of max)->27K(90% of max). Obviously there are some PvP implications, but the simplest solution would be just have it do absolute transitions in PvP. Now the realities of actually making that work in the actual codebase are another issue entirely.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Falsedemise View Post
    Planar Boost isn't bad for tanking because once you stack it up, you only need to refresh it with one additional hit once per 30secs. Not bad for 10% damage increase.

    I'd be more prone to ask about the other pure DPS points that are even further into the tree: Stalker Phase and Ruthless Stalker are both DPS talents that are way too deep in the tree to hybrid as a DPS.
    I don't understand why Riot is pushing to stop hybrids from going onto the cleric tank tree, but pushing the rogues to do so.

    I can understand Constant Deviation being there so that you can add some DPS whenever you're not tanking something, but for 95% of fights, it's useless.

    It's not so prominent in the rogue tree, but it seems like all the tank specs in SL have more of a DPS with mitigation CD's than just having mitigation in them (especially warrior)
    Pretty much this. I don't understand all of these attack bonus in the tanking trees unless you want to actually be dpsing whilst tanking. I assume your purpose is for us to actually work for our threat instead of increasing our threat modifiers on abilities that much higher.

    Constant Deviation will almost not be worth using during progression runs. Anything that increases dmg taken that much will be avoided like AIDS, even when you aren't tanking for a bit. Then again, we are sitting on a bigger cushion for HP...

    Planar Rejuvenation is very weak for a tier 9 ability. Is there anyway we could possibly get something else for that? Possibly our old Shadow Warp?
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    I really like planar splash, I thought it was a nice way to give us something to do AoE wise without needing to go into another soul or use the single target Phantom Blow when we're in AoE mode.

    I agree Planar Rejuvination is too weak, it'd be a lot better if it was instant or the HoT was at least 8sec or less. It also seems like it's fairly high up for something that is mostly useful for solo builds.
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  11. #11
    RIFT Guide Writer Muspel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ailion View Post
    Bolster and Exceptional Resilience are passive buffs, so they are within the passive group and additive to each other. Phantom Blow is active, so they are within the active group. Different groups are multiplicative to one another.
    You just saved me so much time. Thank you.

    Is Rift Guard multiplicative with other active buffs like Phantom Blow? Also, is Shadow Guard additive with Rift Guard, or multiplicative?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ailion View Post
    Planebound Aegis and Soul Coalescence are reworked to something better, but that's for SL.
    Are there any plans to make Planar Rejuvenation more appealing? As it stands, it's probably the weakest survivability talent in the whole tree.
    Last edited by Muspel; 10-16-2012 at 02:05 PM.

  12. #12
    RIFT Guide Writer Muspel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Falsedemise View Post
    Planar Boost isn't bad for tanking because once you stack it up, you only need to refresh it with one additional hit once per 30secs. Not bad for 10% damage increase.
    I'm not saying it's bad, I'm saying it's weird.

    For the most part, tanks don't care much about damage. It's certainly useful (particularly on encounters with tight enrages), but when the entire rotation revolves around something that's secondary to your actual job of surviving, it's odd. Having a talent that makes the rotation fundamentally different from the combo point management of every other soul for a minor DPS gain is even more odd. Again, not necessarily useless, but it feels very "off" to me.

    In my opinion, anything that alters the rotation should do so in an interesting way-- for instance, the Bladedancer rotation on live is interesting because of how you manage builders and CPs. I feel that Planar Boost doesn't really offer that kind of depth.

    The core of being a good tank involves proper cooldown management, but at the end of the day, that's 3-4 abilities that'll be used 4-10 times over the course of an encounter. By tying some measure of survivability to the rotation, it helps to keep tanks engaged and ensures that the buttons they press really matter. We have this to a very small degree right now (IE Phantom Blow's self-heal from the crystal), but I'd like to see it expanded on, because right now, pressing my rotation basically does the same thing as a DPS, only worse.

    And before someone says "if you make threat matter, then tank rotations will be important"... well, I'd argue that threat is too binary to keep tanks engaged. You either have enough and everything goes smoothly, or you don't, and you wipe horribly. There's no difference between "almost enough" and "nowhere near enough", and no benefit to "I have a huge lead" over "I have a tiny lead". Compare that to DPS or healing, where having extra can make a fight measurably easier.

    Like Ailion said, Constant Deviation is there for when you're not actively tanking (IE when it's not your turn on Ituziel), to make up for the fact that you don't get Rift Barrier damage without being hit. That's how I'm going to use it, anyways. It's a damage talent, but it's somewhat interesting and I think it's a good idea.

    Quote Originally Posted by Durango View Post
    As long as you don't change stances the second you need to tank, it shouldn't be too much of an issue in raid. Of course the ideal case is that toggling between tanking phase and dps/healing phase should do a relative HP transition and likewise to a relative HP transition on the way back.

    So if the tank had 30K HP and was at 90% HP while in tank stance, when he switched to DPS stance with 15K max HP, he would still be at 90% HP. So 27K ->13.5K and when switching back into tank stance, it would go 13.5K(90% of max)->27K(90% of max). Obviously there are some PvP implications, but the simplest solution would be just have it do absolute transitions in PvP. Now the realities of actually making that work in the actual codebase are another issue entirely.
    That seems like it could be problematic. You're encouraged to switch out of you're tanking stance to be healed up (after all, bringing a tank from 10k to 15k takes a lot less than bringing a tank from 18k to 27k). I don't know if it's possible to actually exploit it, but it worries me a bit.
    Last edited by Muspel; 10-16-2012 at 02:16 PM.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Durango View Post
    As long as you don't change stances the second you need to tank, it shouldn't be too much of an issue in raid. Of course the ideal case is that toggling between tanking phase and dps/healing phase should do a relative HP transition and likewise to a relative HP transition on the way back.

    So if the tank had 30K HP and was at 90% HP while in tank stance, when he switched to DPS stance with 15K max HP, he would still be at 90% HP. So 27K ->13.5K and when switching back into tank stance, it would go 13.5K(90% of max)->27K(90% of max). Obviously there are some PvP implications, but the simplest solution would be just have it do absolute transitions in PvP. Now the realities of actually making that work in the actual codebase are another issue entirely.
    I've considered this but there's implications in PvE as well. If you know you are about to take a 10k hit you can switch to Mien of Leadership/Guardian Phase then turn it back off to get healed up easier.

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    I kind of like the idea of rift stalker being an offtank/temp tank then switching to decent dps. seems like a very good direction.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Muspel View Post
    The core of being a good tank involves proper cooldown management, but at the end of the day, that's 3-4 abilities that'll be used 4-10 times over the course of an encounter. By tying some measure of survivability to the rotation, it helps to keep tanks engaged and ensures that the buttons they press really matter. We have this to a very small degree right now (IE Phantom Blow's self-heal from the crystal), but I'd like to see it expanded on, because right now, pressing my rotation basically does the same thing as a DPS, only worse.
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