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Thread: Nightblade feedback and recommendations

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    Default Nightblade feedback and recommendations

    What I like:
    - Has a spammable ranged attack and its efficiency from range is improved to around 70% of its melee dps compared to around 50% currently. The ranged dps can not compete with actual ranged -classes but it's enough to handle brief disconnects when dealing with raid mechanics.
    - Can run out of energy but also has some tools to optimize energy consumption and the although NB benefits from fervor it can function without it compared to current live NB which doesn't work at all without fervor.
    - The points spent in the tree are generally quite well balanced instead of having a couple of crucial abilities and plenty of fluff, this is good.

    What I don't like:
    - Fiery Spike is becoming a crutch for assassin builds. Having it stack to 3 with 0 points in NB is too good to pass up. Also Fiery Spike does too big portion of NB damage considering it can be cleansed in pvp.
    - 5 stacks of Fiery Spike is too much of a buildup time for dps. The optimal buildup requires 3 manual fiery spikes currently. Because of this nightblade's ability to switch targets is a lot worse than on live even with combo points now being stored on rogue. Ebon Blades will make this buildup worse and will likely make NB not viable for any fight with target switches or immunity periods.
    - 20% chance for weapon enchants to proc is not enough to keep 15 second buffs and debuffs up reliably now that autoattacks do not proc them. If Ebon Blades is a 15 second debuff on the target then it just won't stay up with 20% proc rate. The stacks will fall in under 2 minutes on average and take 25 seconds to build up. 20% procs every 5 seconds on average, but the random chance of going 15 seconds without proc is high enough that it happens consistently.
    - Stealth openers don't serve a real purpose currently since NB rarely relies on stealth nor does NB have any way to use those abilities during fights.
    - Death from the Shadows was given a fiery spike as an added bonus but 1 stack of spike does not compare to Dark Malady as an opener.
    - Blazing Path is practically useless, 15 meter forward blink that doesn't damage your target can not be used as gap closer since it's a dps loss. Its only use is to flee in pvp and that is really bad for a 58 point ability.
    - Rotation is too simple. NB rotation used to include optimization of combo points vs heat retention stacks but that doesn't really exist anymore. Now it's very static and doesn't really even change when at range.
    - The DPS is just too low. It isn't at all competive with BD right now and BD offers more dps increase when moving from level 50 to level 60 too. If it was 100 behind BD which can't do anything from range it would be fine, but now NB is in the same category as MM and ranger in pure dps which is not acceptable for a melee build.

    Here are my suggestions:
    - Default Fiery Spike should be just 1 stack instead of 3 to avoid all builds requiring it. Enkindle would increase the stacks to 2-3 instead of the current 4-5.
    - Boost all weapon enchant base proc chances to 30%. It's already done for Smoldering Blades and it should be the same for the others or at least Ebon Blades.
    - Death from Shadows should place maximum stacks of Fiery Spike on the target, this gives it a purpose as a dps opener by saving the time to manually apply Fiery Spikes and makes it better than Dark Malady without having it do a huge single hit of damage. If Fiery Spikes were to stack to only 3 then it would also need a damage boost or a similar buff to what Dark Malady has for it to ever be worth using.
    - Stealth openers should be usable outside stealth but using them should put them all on a 45 second shared cooldown. All 4 openers would have a distinctly different purpose this way and they would get used. It would also give some more spice to the rotation.
    - Blazing Path should have an AoE explosion at the destination of the blink, otherwise the loss of gcd to use it causes dps loss compared to just running and using ranged attacks. It could also be changed to an ogcd run speed buff like On The Double in MM soul but it would leave a fire trail behind you. Or even a combination of the two.
    - The DPS just needs a straight up boost of about 200-300 to the current pts numbers. Best places for it would be buffing Scorch and Wither which is underwhelming and increasing the damage of Primal Strike and Dusk Strike.

  2. #2
    Ascendant Galibier's Avatar
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    I agree with everything BUt the dps thing. Are you accounting for the fact that the NB will do 30% more dps when the mob is under 30% health from key attacks? This may balance out the over all encounter dps numbers.
    Far better is it to dare mighty things, to win glorius triumphs, even though checkered by failure... than to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy nor suffer much, because they live in a gray twilight that knows not victory nor defeat.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gery View Post
    What I like:
    - The points spent in the tree are generally quite well balanced instead of having a couple of crucial abilities and plenty of fluff, this is good.
    This is pretty big, its the only dps tree out of MM, BD, Ranger, that leave you with 5-6 points you WANT to spend in the tree at lvl 50. Sab is a close second and Sin has a point or two thats a toss up.

    The more and more I kept looking at 61NB the more I started to realize that Trion must want NB to be our go to pvp spec with the sloth buff and the silly gap closer (only benefit in pve is going to be movement while energy starved since it costs 0) I think this thread nails a lot of the potential issues on the head.

    I also like that our big aoe CD is finally set at 1 minute, not sure what warriors are at now, but being at 30 seconds would be even better since BD now has two huge aoe CDs each at a 1min CD

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    I like the fiery spike change you suggest. I like the Blazing Path you suggest. I think NB is in a good position.

    What do you think about NB having to rely on Scourge of Darkness for burst in PvP?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Galibier View Post
    I agree with everything BUt the dps thing. Are you accounting for the fact that the NB will do 30% more dps when the mob is under 30% health from key attacks? This may balance out the over all encounter dps numbers.
    Nightstalker is a passive and therefore on the same stack as all the other passives. That's why its effect is much smaller than it is on live. It's not even close to balancing out the dps numbers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gery View Post
    Nightstalker is a passive and therefore on the same stack as all the other passives. That's why its effect is much smaller than it is on live. It's not even close to balancing out the dps numbers.
    Are you sure it's a pssive. it has a trigger....mob hit's 30% so I would see that as multiplicative. It's really no different than "when crit" or "when you hit 5 combo points". In this case it is "when the mob hit's 30%."
    Last edited by Galibier; 10-16-2012 at 09:30 AM.
    Far better is it to dare mighty things, to win glorius triumphs, even though checkered by failure... than to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy nor suffer much, because they live in a gray twilight that knows not victory nor defeat.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisN View Post
    I like the fiery spike change you suggest. I like the Blazing Path you suggest. I think NB is in a good position.

    What do you think about NB having to rely on Scourge of Darkness for burst in PvP?
    I have generally liked NB in pvp but pvp is a side interest for me, I'm mainly a raider.

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    oha and even if it is only additive....you don't think going from 66% (current max with just soul bonuses 0 point passive) to a base 96% damage bonus would net 100-200dps?

    If I am not mistaken, that is how adiditve stuff works. The additive stuff is on the front end but is still a straight % increase...then you apply multiplicative on the back end.

    I still think it is multiplicative though. There is no indication it changed I can see BUT I have yet to run a raid either.
    Last edited by Galibier; 10-16-2012 at 09:47 AM.
    Far better is it to dare mighty things, to win glorius triumphs, even though checkered by failure... than to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy nor suffer much, because they live in a gray twilight that knows not victory nor defeat.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Galibier View Post
    oha and even if it is only additive....you don't think going from 66% (current max with just soul bonuses 0 point passive) to a base 96% damage bonus would net 100-200dps?

    If I am not mistaken, that is how adiditve stuff works. The additive stuff is on the front end but is still a straight % increase...then you apply multiplicative on the back end.
    With the current parse numbers at level 50 you would maybe see a 200 dps increase when the target is under 30%, but over the whole encounter that only averages to 60 dps. Meanwhile NB parses hundreds of dps behind BD.

    Nightstalker is not an active buff, it doesn't give you a buff icon or the target a debuff. It's extremely unlikely that it's multiplicative since above 30% nightstalker is passive and it just gets a new modifier when target is under 30%. I have not tested it though so if you want you can go try it.

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    Thank god for temple of Marakris. The mobs are close enough that I can chain em and not lose the 5 stacks of Emptiness once I get rolling... since it buffs Dusk Strike I just spammed the crap out of that one attack

    Results....

    On non-crits, when I was at 5 stacks of emptiness, damage went from the 1780-1840 range to 2340-2440 range.

    It appears to be multiplicative. BTW there is no scorch and wither in my build atm so resists reductions were not an issue.
    Last edited by Galibier; 10-16-2012 at 10:27 AM.
    Far better is it to dare mighty things, to win glorius triumphs, even though checkered by failure... than to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy nor suffer much, because they live in a gray twilight that knows not victory nor defeat.

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    Last edited by Galibier; 10-16-2012 at 10:33 AM.
    Far better is it to dare mighty things, to win glorius triumphs, even though checkered by failure... than to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy nor suffer much, because they live in a gray twilight that knows not victory nor defeat.

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    Great post!

    I'd add that we'll need some extra damage to make up for the smaller Fiery Spike damage if it has fewer stacks. I'd suggest making Dusk Strike or the NB finishers do more damage per stack of Fiery Spike on the target.

    Also, as a meta concern, even making the DPS match BD levels isn't enough unless it matches the melee DPS of other callings in their melee specs.
    Last edited by TroubleMagnet; 10-16-2012 at 10:44 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Galibier View Post
    Thank god for temple of Marakris. The mobs are close enough that I can chain em and not lose the 5 stacks of Emptiness once I get rolling... since it buffs Dusk Strike I just spammed the crap out of that one attack

    Results....

    On non-crits, when I was at 5 stacks of emptiness, damage went from the 1780-1840 range to 2340-2440 range.

    It appears to be multiplicative. BTW there is no scorch and wither in my build atm so resists reductions were not an issue.
    I tested it myself too and you are correct, it's multiplicative. In fact it seems to go beyond the regular pattern and isn't even on the same stack as the usual multiplicative buffs like heat retention. That does make it quite a bit better than I assumed but it still won't make up for the difference.

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    In a dungeon and solo yes. With how long it can take for a raid mob to drop though I think it would balance out. Especially since disconnects will have a lower effect on the NB. I do like A LOT of your changes but I just don't think that Night Stalker needs to be messed with is all.
    Far better is it to dare mighty things, to win glorius triumphs, even though checkered by failure... than to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy nor suffer much, because they live in a gray twilight that knows not victory nor defeat.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Galibier View Post
    In a dungeon and solo yes. With how long it can take for a raid mob to drop though I think it would balance out. Especially since disconnects will have a lower effect on the NB. I do like A LOT of your changes but I just don't think that Night Stalker needs to be messed with is all.
    I did not suggest changes to nightstalker. What I suggested was changes that would improve NB performance for target switches, make the rotation more interesting and that it needs a bit of a boost in dps to get where it needs to be as a melee build.

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