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Thread: Issue with bard info during the reveal

  1. #1
    Plane Walker
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    Default Issue with bard info during the reveal

    When asked about bards getting increased range so they didn't have to stand in "no man's land", we were told that the idea is for them to be in the center of the group to provide buffs. This holds no water especially now that the support roles don't stack as much anymore. Archon can stand anywhere to provide buffs. Beastmaster has to be in melee to provide the buffs (though they can provide them at range if they go with a ranged soul as secondary). Both archon and beastmaster have no trouble providing the buffs to the entire raid, so why is bard still at 20m (25 if you spec MM)?

    Another issue with something that was said... decreasing the motif number and making them refresh on codas "you only have 10 fingers to play with". This seems contrary to what they're trying to do with the rest of the souls. In order to access regular rotational skills in many souls now you have to: reach to activate a number of skills, buy a gaming mouse/keyboard, frequently switch between hotbars, completely change keybinds to not resemble their default form, or frequently use luggish modifiers.
    Last edited by Shoggoth1890; 10-12-2012 at 08:36 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shoggoth1890 View Post
    When asked about bards getting increased range so they didn't have to stand in "no man's land", we were told that the idea is for them to be in the center of the group to provide buffs. This holds no water especially now that the support roles don't stack as much anymore. Archon can stand anywhere to provide buffs. Beastmaster has to be in melee to provide the buffs (though they can provide them at range if they go with a ranged soul as secondary). Both archon and beastmaster have no trouble providing the buffs to the entire raid, so why is bard still at 20m (25 if you spec MM)?

    Another issue with something that was said... decreasing the motif number and making them refresh on codas "you only have 10 fingers to play with". This seems contrary to what they're trying to do with the rest of the souls. In order to access regular rotational skills in many souls now you have to: reach to activate a number of skills, buy a gaming mouse/keyboard, frequently switch between hotbars, completely change keybinds to not resemble their default form, or frequently use luggish modifiers.
    its because most bard buffs don't need to be cast on a target as BM and Archon do... they said "we don't want you hiding out of combat behind a rock buffing the raid"

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    RIFT Guide Writer TheGrinnz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reticularize View Post
    its because most bard buffs don't need to be cast on a target as BM and Archon do... they said "we don't want you hiding out of combat behind a rock buffing the raid"
    Which is BS, no fights even allow for this, nor would anyone sensible do such.

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    If you only buff and had 30m range on buffs (to reach tanks) that means you could stand 30m away from the dps putting you 60m away from a boss outside of combat. Or 60m away from an enemy players. This mixed with specific things from tact could break pvp

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    Ascendant Mirimon's Avatar
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    I sense alot of people who need to improve math skills and understand what line of sight means and maximum effective range... nothing in bard or tactician breaks pvp atm, on live or any other version of the game at present.

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    Rift Disciple Remli's Avatar
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    I'm glad someone brought up the Bard 20-meter range issue again. This is firs and foremost a PvE game, and we've seen certain abilities work very differently in PvP so I don't like the PvP excuses at all.

    The 30-meter range is a quality-of-life issue. There are raid encounters in which the Bard has to disconnect for extended periods of time due to their effective range, rendering them nearly useless when it comes to debuffing the boss and providing raid heals. Maelforge phase 1 is a prime example of this.

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    Ahm... About Maelforge P1: you can stand right in range since the spray only reaches to 18m, however you got those additional 2m. Still I would not mind about additional range since you are way more flexible that way (and Trion wanted the bard to be flexible, no?).

    Also, they did remove the need to push 5 buttons every 30 seconds, but they still gave you stuff you have to manage now. To pull the most out of bard atm you have to use Cadence and Cadenza correctly to either heal or refresh your Verses and use those Verses correctly. Also you have to finish with a Coda every 20 seconds and every coda gives you the refresh of melodies, so debuffing Jeopardy/any of the other stuff does not actually feel like a loss (altough I still think the other debuffs are better left to the archon).

    So in the end what I would like to see is 25m basic range and +5 if you spec MM. This should provide good mobility and positioning while also being able to switch out some dmg/heal features for more range.
    Also, buff Harmonic Distortion a bit! It gives off 3k single target heals on crit! I could live with 4k but 3k is definitely low (considering 2 cadence ticks heal about the same...) for loosing those stacks. I know this is a last resort button but healing a tank with small band aids while he is slaughtered by a giant dragon/swordsman/a large group of mobs is not really doing the trick of a last resort considering you can only do it once 5 times and need a long time to build it up again.

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    RIFT Guide Writer TheGrinnz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reticularize View Post
    If you only buff and had 30m range on buffs (to reach tanks) that means you could stand 30m away from the dps putting you 60m away from a boss outside of combat. Or 60m away from an enemy players. This mixed with specific things from tact could break pvp
    I'm not sure what any of this has to do with bards only being able to attack from 20m. Regardless, buffing someone who is in combat will put you in combat.
    Last edited by TheGrinnz; 10-15-2012 at 10:24 AM.

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    RIFT Guide Writer Muspel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reticularize View Post
    If you only buff and had 30m range on buffs (to reach tanks) that means you could stand 30m away from the dps putting you 60m away from a boss outside of combat. Or 60m away from an enemy players. This mixed with specific things from tact could break pvp
    Well, then, it's a good thing that bards have plenty of abilities that encourage them to stay in range of enemies. If all you're doing is standing back and using Motifs, then you're doing it wrong.

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    RIFT Fan Site Operator Dunharrow's Avatar
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    The "middle" of a fight is almost always the boss itself, or slightly behind it. Bards do not need increased range whatsoever. If you don't want to stand at 20m, then stand in melee range. I honestly can't fathom what bard complaints are about.
    • Warboss: Stand in the middle of the room. Easily within 20m of boss.
    • Ituziel: Stand with ranged stacks. They are always within 20m of boss. If not, just stand with melee.
    • Conclave: Follow around whatever boss you're killing. Easily within 20m of boss.
    • Maklamos: Everyone is standing much closer than 20m of the boss.
    • Rusila: Entire raid stands within 20m of boss.
    • Laethys: P1 ranged stack is within 20m of boss; P2 onward bard can stand with melee or anywhere within 20m easily.
    • Maelforge: P1 get the melee immunity to breath damage and then stand wherever you want; P2 onward the ranged stack is within 20m of the boss.
    So where exactly is the freakin problem?
    Last edited by Dunharrow; 10-15-2012 at 09:03 PM.

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    RIFT Guide Writer Muspel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dunharrow View Post
    The "middle" of a fight is almost always the boss itself, or slightly behind it. Bards do not need increased range whatsoever. If you don't want to stand at 20m, then stand in melee range. I honestly can't fathom what bard complaints are about.
    • Warboss: Stand in the middle of the room. Easily within 20m of boss.
    • Ituziel: Stand with ranged stacks. They are always within 20m of boss.
    • Conclave: Follow around whatever boss you're killing. Easily within 20m of boss.
    • Maklamos: Everyone is standing much closer than 20m of the boss.
    • Rusila: Entire raid stands within 20m of boss.
    • Laethys: P1 ranged stack is within 20m of boss; P2 onward bard can stand with melee or anywhere within 20m easily.
    • Maelforge: P1 get the melee immunity to breath damage and then stand wherever you want; P2 onward the ranged stack is within 20m of the boss.
    So where exactly is the freakin problem?
    PvP. Did you even read the thread?

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    The only time I have issues with Bard range is PvP, but looking at the patch notes who cares about Rogues in PvP anyways
    Even free cost too much now

  13. #13
    RIFT Fan Site Operator Dunharrow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Muspel View Post
    PvP. Did you even read the thread?
    No one is talking about PvP in this thread. Did you read it? One guy mentioned it in passing. Everyone else is using words like "boss" and "raid" which don't apply to PvP, last I checked.

    Quote Originally Posted by Credo View Post
    The only time I have issues with Bard range is PvP, but looking at the patch notes who cares about Rogues in PvP anyways
    Exactly. If you care about PvP, you shouldn't be a rogue. Trion has made this very clear over the last 1.5+ years.
    Last edited by Dunharrow; 10-15-2012 at 09:06 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Muspel View Post
    PvP. Did you even read the thread?
    don't sweat it.. every time he opens his mouth about "bard" he continues to show he does not play it , or not enough to know the issues, ever losing any credibility . Perhaps he should go "make" (and by make I mean copy somebody else's build and rename it) some already well known and used builds and be vain enough to name them all after himself, or some poorly translated hong-kong kungfu theatre flick...



    the issue remains.. since release to today, something requested often and not only makes much sense, but is definitely deserving. Now with the changes to Bard that CLEARLY DEFINE IT AS A RANGED SOUL USING THE RANGED WEAPON.... yes. Bard should be 30m. it effects us in pve and pvp.. and no.. what they have given as the reason for it in the stream was not valid, especially if you have any cognitive ability this would be easily noticed. everybody else buffs/heals, debuffs just fine at 30m.. covering the whole raid..


    you could drop 5 into mm, for some increased range (and still be out ranged by a warrior) but thats up to you.. if your plan is to be more dps focused.. if healing and support via raid buffs, extra healing, and mitigation enhancements.. then 15 into tact will be the route to travel. (I can neither confirm or deny specifics as to the reasoning behind this and must only leave that somewhat vague statement as I may or may not be restricted from doing otherwise.)

    1.11 is plagued with bugs.. and I would hope it doesn't come out yet, for the sake of all rogues, not just bards, and 1.11 being what it is.. the foundation of what the expac will be built on.. well.. you could imagine what that might be like with these issues being further compounded.

    (it also seems to be that our dev.. Ailion.. it the only one following the previously set for class goals and guidance.. while the rest are running a muck.. creating unrestricted op changes for their classes.. good on Ailion for the integrity.. but we could use some checks and balances across the whole game.. (Pssst, Daglar!! I know you can do it!)

    rogues.. where we have to use more abilities.. more often, that cost more, yet do less, and we get things that cause absolutely no dmg to get nerfed.. haha... sigh.....
    Last edited by Mirimon; 10-15-2012 at 11:08 PM.

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    Ascendant Mirimon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dunharrow View Post
    No one is talking about PvP in this thread. Did you read it? One guy mentioned it in passing. Everyone else is using words like "boss" and "raid" which don't apply to PvP, last I checked.



    Exactly. If you care about PvP, you shouldn't be a rogue. Trion has made this very clear over the last 1.5+ years.
    and no.. this covers all of barding.. pve and pvp..

    one thing you have finally gotten right, is that.. rogues have increasingly become useless in the pvp realm of things.. and never more so than in 1.11.. where we are restricted to ~20% crit,ability costs are double what other classes are, yet the abilities do only a fraction of that damage, 1.11 not only broke the dps aspect of rogue.. but any aspect of even helping via raid utility in pvp, aside from buff bot.. healing is hout (as rogue healing is 100% aoe only.. and so under the yoke of drastic "pvp nerfing" , no more healing debuffs.. being midway in a soul and nerfed to only 10%.. no more purging.. sigh.. it goes on.

    atm enjoy rogue pve, at least the leveling.. as the raids wont be much fun either with cleric pets themselves doing more dps than most of our specs... it's broken.. badly.. we can only hope it gets fixed in time, I would hate to feel I was swindled..

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