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Thread: Rogue melee, do they all suck in pve?

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    Soulwalker Tiffan's Avatar
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    Default Rogue melee, do they all suck in pve?

    Having tried every spec I can think of, both in controlled dummy situations and mass chaos raids/pvp. I have come to the conclusion that melee dps just isnt as high as ranged in any situation.

    Nothing compares to sab aoe and none of the melee specs can touch ranger/marksmen single target.

    Is melee simply out of the question, or am I missing something. Good melee build anyone?
    Heinz Getwellvet. I am trainer of dolphins. You want to talk to de dolphin, you talk to me.

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    Bloodstalker (Sin/RS) is the top ST, provided that the fight allows for it. I haven't used NB/Sin in awhile or even 51 BD, so I can't really comment on those, but they are alternative melee specs that can be used in the event that Sin/RS is not usable/viable (Akyliossss).
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    Rift Disciple Remli's Avatar
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    Bloodstalker (sin/rs) is our highest ST dps build and significantly higher than Ranger. Nightblade is also competitive, and more flexible than Bloodstalker. You should be able to find some good guides on those builds/rotations in our guides section.

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    RIFT Guide Writer Muspel's Avatar
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    Basically, here are the melee specs, and their pros/cons.

    Bloodstalker - Does extremely high single-target DPS, but has a lot of buffs and debuffs to track. Use this for melee-friendly fights where you can stand behind the boss, rarely need to leave melee range, don't need to AoE/cleave, and teleporting won't kill you. If you're new to the spec, I don't recommend using this on awareness-intensive encounters like General Silgen-- practice the rotation until you can do it easily. This spec is completely unplayable without LE/Fervor, and is still starved with them, even when Verse of Joy is used on cooldown.

    Nightblade - Melee-friendly fights with occasional/frequent disconnects. Has strong ST DPS, decent AoE DPS, and strong defensive cooldowns, which can be useful in certain situations. This spec has very weak mobility, which renders it somewhat less effective on some encounters. Energy starved without LE/Fervor (and still somewhat starved with them).

    Bladedancer - Strong ST DPS, strong AoE (although nowhere near Saboteur's), and good mobility. The rotation isn't complicated, but it's very different than any other rogue spec and may require getting used to, and you're going to need an addon of some kind to track your various dances. Has a long ramp-up time and no ranged abilities, making it very weak on any fight where you're often forced out of melee range. The main use for this spec is if you need to provide Lethal Poison on multiple targets, or if you don't have access to Living Energy/Fervor.


    All of the melee specs have the potential to outperform Ranger, but it requires melee weapons that are at least as good as your ranged weapon. If you have an ID bow and HK daggers, for instance, Ranger is going to beat out any other spec. The melee specs are also EXTREMELY reliant on synergy crystal bonuses.

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    Ascendant Mayi's Avatar
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    Sin-RS is worth learning, but it all depends on what content you're doing. In the ID tier the only melee spec that's worth using is Sin-RS.

    I haven't seen a ranger parse with the relic bow yet but from testing on PTS and such a 4.8k Ituziel should be reachable. Ranger isn't the best spec, but because of how the encounters are designed the best specs are Sin-RS, Sab and Ranger.

    BD's single target is now relatively worse then it was pre-ID. I believe the PA changes are responsible. NB is easy but I can't imagine playing NB instead of Sin-RS if you can melee.
    I rite a gooded guide for rouges.

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    I'm still half way to suspecting that there's some kind of error in one of the Bladedancer's AP bonus talent calculations going on in the background somewhere. Between Blade Finesse, Combat Expertise and Contra Tempo it looks like it should be more than keeping up with the others as scaling for it's ST goes. But it doesn't seem to be.

    It's really... odd.
    Last edited by Kedon; 09-05-2012 at 01:15 PM.

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    Ascendant Mayi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kedon View Post
    I'm still half way to suspecting that there's some kind of error in one of the Bladedancer's AP bonus talent calculations going on in the background somewhere. Between Blade Finesse, Combat Expertise and Contra Tempo it looks like it should be more than keeping up with the others as scaling goes. But it doesn't seem to be.

    It's really... odd.
    Maybe, but it doesn't scale as well off ap as the other builds. I used to use BD a lot before they changed PAs from weapon dps to ap. After the change BD went from within a 100 dps on the dummy of Sin-RS to 300+.

    Don't forget that expose weakness has 1000% ap scaling and SoD has a 3x ap coefficient (hidden coefficient). BD's deceiving because you see the big numbers on the scaling of precision and quick strike from contra tempo (250%), but you only use one of those abilities twice per finisher. You also need to use keen strike twice plus deadly strike which both scale like ****. I think precision is about 3/4 of the damage of deadly strike as 51 BD, for a finisher that's pretty bad.
    Last edited by Mayi; 09-05-2012 at 01:24 PM.
    I rite a gooded guide for rouges.

    NB-Sin Guide - http://forums.riftgame.com/rift-gene...-sin-spec.html

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    Ascendant MoonfireSpam's Avatar
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    You'd have to consider equal tier weapons in order to make a fair compairson, and even then you aren't exactly geared the same way.Then you have latency, amongst other issues to take into consideration.

    Under ideal circumstances, a ranger with the top end ID gear could potentially touch 4.8... but I've found it mostly hovering in the range of 4.6 on the high end, but usually lower by 1-300 on any given fight.

    With Bloodstalker, i would've had my first 5.1k parse this week if not for a missed purge on ituziel, which eventually domino'd into a wipe. The actual kill parse was a much less satisfying 4.8ish because I screwed up a few times and it took a bit to get back into the groove of it since the timers were jumbled and not what I'm used to.

    Melee specs, or at least bloodstalker, is our current highest ST spec if the situation allows you to use it. Else its ranger or sab as far as dps goes, and MM for utility purposes.
    So long, and thanks for all the fish~

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    RIFT Fan Site Operator Dunharrow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiffan View Post
    Having tried every spec I can think of, both in controlled dummy situations and mass chaos raids/pvp. I have come to the conclusion that melee dps just isnt as high as ranged in any situation.

    Nothing compares to sab aoe and none of the melee specs can touch ranger/marksmen single target.

    Is melee simply out of the question, or am I missing something. Good melee build anyone?
    Your problem is you are trying specs that you can "think of" against tried-and-true cookie cutter ranged builds. Do some more research and try real specs like 49NB or Bloodstalker. They are both capable of beating Ranger and Sab.

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    Ascendant Credo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Muspel View Post
    Bladedancer - Strong ST DPS, strong AoE (although nowhere near Saboteur's), and good mobility. The rotation isn't complicated, but it's very different than any other rogue spec and may require getting used to, and you're going to need an addon of some kind to track your various dances.
    I just want to point out that you don't need an addon to do this.
    Even free cost too much now

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    RIFT Guide Writer Muspel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Credo View Post
    I just want to point out that you don't need an addon to do this.
    To do it efficiently, you certainly do.

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    Plane Walker
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiffan View Post
    Having tried every spec I can think of, both in controlled dummy situations and mass chaos raids/pvp. I have come to the conclusion that melee dps just isnt as high as ranged in any situation.

    Nothing compares to sab aoe and none of the melee specs can touch ranger/marksmen single target.

    Is melee simply out of the question, or am I missing something. Good melee build anyone?
    There are some good specs for pvp, but melee rogues need help period:

    51NB/12BD/3RS
    This is my favorite. It does great damage, has great survivability and has decent mobility and average CC. Very good for WF's. It's entirely based on CD's and self buffs so requires "smart" decision making, but it is very affective. It can be used toe to toe and you can kite with it.

    51SIN/15BD/0RNGR
    Most common 51 sin build. Use your bleeds, stuns and leeching/debilitating poison. Be smart about picking your fights and using stealth. Having only anathema, from the pvp tree, not from the build, is the biggest shortfall of this build, and it can be gamebreaking since it is so limited in it's use. Played right, you can really piss a lot of people off with this build, and if you're in to pvp, sometimes that's more fun then killing people.

    8BARD/22BD/36Sin
    This spec is great for open world, pvp dailies and, occasionally, WF's. It has great damage but has really great self heals (Improved Meditative Trance from BD, the self heal DoT from Bard, cadence from Bard, and leeching poison and deadly brew from sin). It's only ranged ability is cadence, so it's very limited there, but does have a gap closer and sprint. It's a fun build to mess around with.
    Unrated -- Now show me on this doll where the mean rogue touched you.

  13. #13
    Plane Walker
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    Quote Originally Posted by Muspel View Post
    To do it efficiently, you certainly do.
    Some people might benefit from an addon, for others it would not be necessary. Personally, I don't like players crutching on addon's, but thats just me.
    Unrated -- Now show me on this doll where the mean rogue touched you.

  14. #14
    RIFT Guide Writer Muspel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Emanresu View Post
    Some people might benefit from an addon, for others it would not be necessary. Personally, I don't like players crutching on addon's, but thats just me.
    A crutch is an artificial aid. The word may have negative connotations, but when the alternative is flat-out worse, then those connotations aren't deserved.

    By the strict definition of the word, wearing glasses is a crutch, but you probably wouldn't encourage people with poor eyesight to go without them.

  15. #15
    Ascendant MoonfireSpam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Muspel View Post
    A crutch is an artificial aid. The word may have negative connotations, but when the alternative is flat-out worse, then those connotations aren't deserved.

    By the strict definition of the word, wearing glasses is a crutch, but you probably wouldn't encourage people with poor eyesight to go without them.
    Going with your analogy, you certainly wouldn't impose glasses on folks who can see clearly without them.

    ... since they would actually hinder those people far more than they would help =P
    So long, and thanks for all the fish~

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