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Thread: ~Rogue~ Tank what about this build

  1. #1
    Exo
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    Default ~Rogue~ Tank what about this build

    Hello I am Exxo and I have some question about rogue tanking.

    What I really want is for the Rogues that are tanks in raiding guilds that play the role as Tank to take a look at the build That I use and let me know what you think about it.

    I have read a lot of post in the guide section that show 2 build that are used the most one is the high HP RS/RANG/BARD the other is the High mitigation RS/BD/RANG build. Although both have 51 RS and 8 Rang, they switch bard for Blade dancer or vice versa.

    My spec uses both Bard and Blade dancer and I do without the ranger. So now I get all the CD you get with BD and all the hp with bard. (best of both worlds)

    What I am missing without having ranger in the spec is:

    Ranged attack or Ranged Pull (I have taunt and I am Tanking why am I trying to do this at range)

    Predatory-Instincts (46AP boost) not interested in it because I am tanking not dpsing.
    Bolster (6% mitigation) nice I would have to say
    Enduring (5% hp Boost) ok more hp is always good
    Pet (really if you have to ask please go play a ranger)
    Splinter shot (once again I am not DPSing)
    Quick shot (once again I am not DPSing)
    Headshot (once again I am not DPSing)
    SO really what I miss for not having ranger for Tank is 6% mitigation and 5% hp boost

    What I get from bard:
    10% hp boost from Good Health
    2% hit and crit reduction on your enemy from Street Smart
    Endurance buff of 40 (when you are in 5 mans with no Bard)

    What I get from Blade dance:
    Quick Reflexes (5% Dodge)
    Meditative Trance (Restores 1007 hp over 12 sec)
    Combat Pose (Dexterity increase by 40) (when you donít have bard)
    Twin Strikes (Another AOE attack)
    Side Steps (increases Dodge by 50% for 15sec

    What I get from 51 Rift Stalker:
    If I have to type all of this out for you then no offence but you are not the person I am looking from advice from.

    This is the link to the build so you can take a look see it.
    http://rift.zam.com/en/stc.html?t=0M...uRdqkkR.x0d.-6

    Thank you for Reading
    Exxo
    Raid lead and Rogue Lead
    "Eternity" Greybriar

  2. #2
    Rift Master Ymirson's Avatar
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    HP and damage reduction are more effective at higher tiers of raiding then 5% dodge. Unless you need SIde Steps for whatever reason, BD offers no advantage.
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    General of Telara
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    I think it's a fine build to use if you're primarily tanking GSB/RoS/HK. For all of HK I tanked using 51RS/7Ranger/8BD (before the update that got rid of False Blade). If you're using a build with BD I'd think Ranger would be the better sub soul (for Bolster) and you should go 8 Ranger and 7 Bladedancer. Meditative Trance is a useless ability and the point lost in Strike Back (or Reprisal) is moot. The healing you're getting from Meditative Trance is completely over-healing and is simply taking away from the healing potential of other people.

    I haven't personally used Bladedancer in my tank spec since tanking Ituziel when ID was released; Side Steps really did me no good on that fight and I seemed to have much better success using 8Ranger/7Bard. The only fight in ID I could see having BD in your spec where it would be beneficial for is on Maklamos and using Side Steps for the add tanking. Maybe even if you're tanking Twyl, you could use it while tanking the P3 adds.


    What I get from Blade dance:
    Quick Reflexes (5% Dodge) ~ Pretty good but is certainly not better than a straight 6% mitigation from Ranger.
    Meditative Trance (Restores 1007 hp over 12 sec) ~ Useless ability
    Combat Pose (Dexterity increase by 40) (when you donít have bard) ~ Useless ability. You shouldn't even be tanking 5-mans in a 51RS spec. Use a DPS/Tank Hybrid like a soloing spec.
    Twin Strikes (Another AOE attack) ~ Pretty useless; Rogues have no problem holding AoE threat with Planar Vortex and Rift Disturbance.
    Side Steps (increases Dodge by 50% for 15sec ~ Not a bad CD, but personally I don't think it's worth the HP loss by not using Ranger or Bard. A couple of serious hits in ID can't be dodged. Perhaps the best way to get any use from this ability is when you're tanking a lot of mobs.

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    Exo
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ymirson View Post
    HP and damage reduction are more effective at higher tiers of raiding then 5% dodge. Unless you need SIde Steps for whatever reason, BD offers no advantage.
    I see what you are saying but I disagree Dodge is a dmg Reduction and is one of your largest mitigation after you have reached Deflect cap if you are in ID gear and have the correct Lessers then you are going to be over that Cap.

    Side Step is one if not the best mitigation CD you have in situation where you need it because you are taking spike dmg. and/or need to give your healer a breath of fresh air to get you filled back up.
    In 20 man raids I set at 23467 hp now the extra HP from Ranger is not needed IMO

    I do thank you for your input.
    Raid lead and Rogue Lead
    "Eternity" Greybriar

  5. #5
    General of Telara
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    Side Steps is certainly not the best mitigation CD for Rogues.

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    Exo
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vitto View Post
    Side Steps is certainly not the best mitigation CD for Rogues.
    Agree Best is not the correct choice of words but it is good to give the healer a chance to get you toped off before an ability is about to hit also depending on what trinket you are using can proc your trinkets.
    Raid lead and Rogue Lead
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    RIFT Guide Writer TheGrinnz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Exo View Post
    I see what you are saying but I disagree Dodge is a dmg Reduction and is one of your largest mitigation after you have reached Deflect cap if you are in ID gear and have the correct Lessers then you are going to be over that Cap.
    Dodge is avoidance not mitigation, and in most raid fights will only even affect the boss's autoattack. 6% mitigation affects everything except a few fixed-damage mechanics.

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    Exo
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheGrinnz View Post
    Dodge is avoidance not mitigation, and in most raid fights will only even affect the boss's autoattack. 6% mitigation affects everything except a few fixed-damage mechanics.
    Avoidance is 100% Mitigation
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  9. #9
    Ascendant Primalthirst's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Exo View Post
    Avoidance is 100% Mitigation
    Not against magic attacks or abilities which can't be Dodged, ie all of the important ones.
    Autoattacks are the only thing you can usually avoid with Dodge/Deflect/Parry and they are the attacks which are least likely to kill you, if you're dying to them then something else is wrong.

    The 6% mitigation from Bolster does not actually mean you will take 6% less damage. Due to the way mitigation multipliers stack for a Rogue it's going to be at least 10% less damage taken overall, probably more like 15%. I can't be bothered checking the specifics at the moment.
    Nope.

  10. #10
    RIFT Guide Writer TheGrinnz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Exo View Post
    Avoidance is 100% Mitigation
    Tell that to Inquisitor Garau, Moldering Decay, and Grugonim

  11. #11
    RIFT Guide Writer TheGrinnz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Primalthirst View Post
    Not against magic attacks or abilities which can't be Dodged, ie all of the important ones.
    Autoattacks are the only thing you can usually avoid with Dodge/Deflect/Parry and they are the attacks which are least likely to kill you, if you're dying to them then something else is wrong.
    To be fair, on Matron Zamira if you don't use any tomes her autoattacks start to hurt. But at any rate, you are going to fail to dodge one eventually.

    The 6% mitigation from Bolster does not actually mean you will take 6% less damage. Due to the way mitigation multipliers stack for a Rogue it's going to be at least 10% less damage taken overall, probably more like 15%. I can't be bothered checking the specifics at the moment.
    It's than 6% of the *original* damage, but more than 6% of the *perceived* damage after other DR is taken into account, which I would argue is an incorrect perception. I feel like we've had this discussion before though, anyway it doesn't change how much damage it actually mitigates, it's just a silly way to look at it.
    Last edited by TheGrinnz; 08-30-2012 at 02:01 PM.

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    Street smart isn't that great, as toughness already takes care of the critical hit reduction. Once you reach the toughness requirement for a raid tier, the bosses/mobs in said raid tier won't be able to critically hit you anyways.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mandarb View Post
    Street smart isn't that great, as toughness already takes care of the critical hit reduction. Once you reach the toughness requirement for a raid tier, the bosses/mobs in said raid tier won't be able to critically hit you anyways.
    Bosses also can't miss.
    So Street Smart is absolutely useless in raids.
    Nope.

  14. #14
    RIFT Guide Writer Muspel's Avatar
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    Bard is flat-out inferior to Ranger. Bolster stacks additively with other rogue tank mitigation ability (other than Rift Guard, which stacks multiplicatively), which means it's actually significantly more than 6% relative reduction. Even with the 40 endurance buff, ranger STILL has higher effective HP.

    The only benefit to using Bard is if you need to provide the 40 endurance buff to other people in your party. In a 5-man, that's never, ever necessary, and in a raid, someone else will provide that buff.

    Going 8 points into Bladedancer is not worthwhile. Meditative Trance is only useful for soloing, and it's DEFINITELY not better than a point in Bolster.

    For most content, 51RS/7BD/8RNG is the best tanking spec. On anything that does very high burst damage (such as Ituziel), 51RS/7Bard/8RNG pulls ahead, because you'll want the extra EH to survive those damage spikes.
    Last edited by Muspel; 08-30-2012 at 07:31 PM.

  15. #15
    RIFT Fan Site Operator Dunharrow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Exo View Post
    Avoidance is 100% Mitigation
    Oh hell no its not. While avoiding a hit is equivalent to mitigating 100%, 5% avoidance is not the same as 5% mitigation. Its worse.

    The very first stat any tank should look at when deciding stat priorities or spec, is a stat called Worst Case Scenario Time to Live. This basically measures how long you will survive if you get no heals and avoid no attacks. If this number is > 6 seconds or so, then you are in the comfort zone, and you can worry about avoidance. If this number is < 6 seconds, then you are in great peril and you must focus on increasing it.

    If you have 50% avoidance, you'll dodge/parry half of enemy hits. If you are being hit very fast, very often, for a lot less than your max HP, then avoidance will act like mitigation.

    However, Infernal Dawn bosses--and really any boss capable of killing a tank who is being healed--do not hit fast and often for low damage. They hit very very hard. In the case of Ituziel, Rusila, Laethys, etc. (not that a rogue will be tanking Laethys) the tank can be killed in 2-4 hits from full health.

    Let's jump back to Worst Case Scenario Time to Live. On Ituziel, even for the best geared tank, this will be something like 4 seconds. For a Rogue, its more like 2 seconds.

    Because these raid bosses hit so hard, avoidance becomes a luxury stat. Everything you do should instead focus on Worst Case Scenario Time to Live. You simply can't risk trading effective HP for Dodge when 2 hits in a row will kill you. Eventually you will get hit twice in a row and your raid will wipe. While you may point to your avoidance and say that won't happen very often, its irrelevant. The point is that when it does happen, it is catastrophic.

    The only thing that can increase your Worst Case Scenario Time to Live is Effective Health. Effective Health is basically a multiple of your HP and mitigation. Mitigation makes HP better and HP makes mitigation better. So here's the kicker: nothing in Bladedancer increases your Effective Health. You get a bit of avoidance, and you get a very nice cooldown in Side Steps, but you lose Effective Health, and thus you will be in a worse position for tanking the hardest-hitting bosses in the game. And if you're not gearing and spec'ing to deal with those bosses, then min/max doesn't matter anyway.

    By the way: Deflect is not mitigation either. Deflect is basically fractional avoidance. Its avoidance-lite, because it only has a chance to occur, but when even when you Deflect, you still take damage. Fortunately, its easy to stack to the cap and in doing so, you also get a decent amount of dodge. This will help ease the burden on healers somewhat, but remember that Worst Case Scenario Time to Live does not take deflects into account. I promise that sometimes, some bosses will get 2 or even 3 undeflected attacks in a row, and you must be able to survive those hits.

    Bottom line: 51 RS / 7 Bard / 8 Ranger is the preeminent tanking spec and will remain so at least until Storm Legion because it has the maximum Effective Health and Worst Case Scenario Time to Live. You're not reinventing the wheel here and we've all been down this road before. Its just not worth it to take BD. If you are talking about a secondary tank spec, then it can be worth it, because Side Steps can allow you to bypass some mechanics and actually avoid raid wipes. But if you only have one tanking spec, it must be RS/bard/ranger.
    Last edited by Dunharrow; 08-31-2012 at 06:29 AM.

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