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Thread: Rogue Tank Mitigation

  1. #1
    Soulwalker
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    Default Rogue Tank Mitigation

    I have a rogue alt that I am getting tank gear for and I am curious if anyone has the numbers on how a rogue's mitigation stacks up against a warriors. If there is a post on it, I would appreciate the link, but if not, I am interested in how much damage +/- (percentages or raw numbers, whatever is easiest) a rogue would take on a physical hit, a deflected physical hit, magic damage and deflected magic damage (I am under the assumption that deflect works similarly to block).

    Thanks

    PS: I understand that rogues have a large amount of avoidance, plus cooldowns for it, but I am curious how the damage compares when it actually hits me.

  2. #2
    RIFT Guide Writer TheGrinnz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reshnaugh View Post
    I have a rogue alt that I am getting tank gear for and I am curious if anyone has the numbers on how a rogue's mitigation stacks up against a warriors. If there is a post on it, I would appreciate the link, but if not, I am interested in how much damage +/- (percentages or raw numbers, whatever is easiest) a rogue would take on a physical hit, a deflected physical hit, magic damage and deflected magic damage (I am under the assumption that deflect works similarly to block).

    Thanks

    PS: I understand that rogues have a large amount of avoidance, plus cooldowns for it, but I am curious how the damage compares when it actually hits me.
    Riftstalker has only 26% physical and 13% magic damage reduction inherently (unless I missed something, don't play rogues), this is far less than either warriors or clerics. However on top of that it gets Rift Guard which absorbs 42.5% of all damage before it even gets to your other damage reduction. So in essence it's like having around 57.5% physical and 50% magic damage reduction as long as you have rift guard up (without taking other DR and shields into account which could make these numbers a bit different), this is pretty similar to what warriors and clerics get. But for physical damage you start with less armor so there's a difference there. But Guardian Phase also boosts your armor and resistances (by how much I have no idea).

    Can't speak for deflected attacks but you can't deflect spells.
    Last edited by TheGrinnz; 08-17-2012 at 07:56 AM.

  3. #3
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    Have a look at the Rogue tank spreadsheet: http://forums.riftgame.com/rift-gene...-8-update.html

    He has some of the math worked out on your total mitigation and such.
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    TheGrinnz threw some numbers up there but they are a bit wrong. Generally a rogue tank build has phantom blow, exceptional resilience and bolster for a total of 18% base mitigation to all. Then Shadow Guard for 15% physical resistance and guardian phase gives 30 points of all elemental resists which is worth about 4.5% damage reduction. Rift Guard on the other hand is only 35%, not 42.5%.

    With the reitemization of rogue tank gear for deflect our deflect chance and deflect mitigation are up there with warriors and clerics so no complaints there. The introduction of conquest points and the health bonus seems to have evened out the health pools too since rogues get more out of that bonus than warrior and cleric tanks, before that we were a bit behind.

    I don't know the exact numbers how well the mitigation between warriors, rogues and clerics stacks up but I do know that rogue mitigation is in a good place now so I wouldn't worry about that. I only really tank Maklamos together with a warrior now and there my mitigation stacks up very well even though my gear is a bit worse.

    The reasons why most guilds use more warrior and cleric tanks is because of other factors:
    1. Warriors have 4 tank souls so most of the people who specifically wanted to tank rolled a warrior
    2. Warriors were the superior tank in HK all the way so rogue and cleric tanks largely got pushed away from their spots
    3. Rogues do not particularly offer any actual raid utility such as cutting distraction, this makes it a dps loss for the raid to have a rogue tank. Meanwhile, Rogue tank specialty which is high mobility is relatively useless since the optimal way to tank is almost always stationary. And when blinking would give a nice advantage like hard mode Maklamos or Inquisitor Garau you will find that the mechanics prevent blinking completely.
    4. Cleric tanks have awesome ranged threat generation, this is something that is often important and very lacking in rogues.

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    RIFT Guide Writer TheGrinnz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gery View Post
    TheGrinnz threw some numbers up there but they are a bit wrong. Generally a rogue tank build has phantom blow, exceptional resilience and bolster for a total of 18% base mitigation to all. Then Shadow Guard for 15% physical resistance and guardian phase gives 30 points of all elemental resists which is worth about 4.5% damage reduction. Rift Guard on the other hand is only 35%, not 42.5%.
    Thanks for the info, didn't know about Phantom Blow. Don't see Bolster though. EDIT: Just saw it in Ranger, aha!

    Rift Guard tooltip says the base is 15%, then Improved Rift Guard increases it by 2.5% + 0.5% for each point above 16. 15+2.5+(0.5*50) = 42.5. I'm using ZAM as I don't have a rogue, is it different in-game?

    The reasons why most guilds use more warrior and cleric tanks is because of other factors:
    1. Warriors have 4 tank souls so most of the people who specifically wanted to tank rolled a warrior
    2. Warriors were the superior tank in HK all the way so rogue and cleric tanks largely got pushed away from their spots
    3. Rogues do not particularly offer any actual raid utility such as cutting distraction, this makes it a dps loss for the raid to have a rogue tank. Meanwhile, Rogue tank specialty which is high mobility is relatively useless since the optimal way to tank is almost always stationary. And when blinking would give a nice advantage like hard mode Maklamos or Inquisitor Garau you will find that the mechanics prevent blinking completely.
    4. Cleric tanks have awesome ranged threat generation, this is something that is often important and very lacking in rogues.
    Pretty much. Additionally rogues lack the multiple spammable AoEs and ranged attacks to aggro adds that warriors have, or the insane threat generation on adds that Clerics get as you mentioned, they have to port to build threat on new enemies. The aggro of clerics is equally overpowered compared to Warriors as to Rogues ;)

    I wouldn't really consider the loss of Cutting Distraction significant though.
    Last edited by TheGrinnz; 08-17-2012 at 09:16 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheGrinnz View Post
    Rift Guard tooltip says the base is 15%, then Improved Rift Guard increases it by 2.5% + 0.5% for each point above 16. 15+2.5+(0.5*50) = 42.5. I'm using ZAM as I don't have a rogue, is it different in-game?
    The tooltip is correct, your math is just a bit wrong. 51 point in RS means you have 35 points above the 16, not 50. So it's 15+2.5+35/2=35

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gery View Post
    The tooltip is correct, your math is just a bit wrong. 51 point in RS means you have 35 points above the 16, not 50. So it's 15+2.5+35/2=35
    Right sorry, too used to warrior tanks getting 66 pts in tanking souls :P

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    So with those numbers, rogues have 38% physical and 25% magic mitigation, under a 35% rift guard, which works out to around 60% physical and 51% magic mitigation, stacking multiplicatively with armor and resists respectively.

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    the only thing that rogues bring like gery said is the ability to blink and recall, wich arent of much use to a raid.

    everything else some other tank can do also, thus bringing up the question, why bring a rogue tank?

    luckily the mitigation accross the board seems to be good so theres no reason NOT to bring a rogue tank but theres no reason TO bring one.

    clerics have great threat for picking up mobs as soon as they enter the fight, the can either purge or cleanse depending on their spec, toss out raid heals and can battle res, and also swap stances to a full blown raid healer while not tanking. it makes sense because of this to have a cleric as the second tank or OT.

    warriors have a billion things they bring to the raid, im not going to list them all but just in comparison to rogue tanks who have wellness, warrior tanks have rallying command and in addition, aid command. rogues have defer death, warriors have no permission to die. rogues have planar attraction, warriors have sgts order, rift summon and generals order.

    hopefully with SL well see more tanking improvements with either the adddition of new souls or the expansion of the current ones to provide rogues with a bit more utility.
    Last edited by Shieldy; 08-17-2012 at 09:52 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shieldy View Post
    luckily the mitigation accross the board seems to be good so theres no reason NOT to bring a rogue tank but theres no reason TO bring one.
    The mitigation looks the same on paper, but try healing a Warrior tank through Laethys and Maelforge; then, try healing a Rogue tank. Rogues are inferior, very much so, in non-physical mitigation. The 2k or so disparity in HP pool doesn't help.
    Last edited by Ianto Jones; 08-17-2012 at 10:01 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shieldy View Post
    warriors have a billion things they bring to the raid, im not going to list them all but just in comparison to rogue tanks who have wellness, warrior tanks have rallying command and in addition, aid command. rogues have defer death, warriors have no permission to die. rogues have planar attraction, warriors have sgts order, rift summon and generals order.
    while not incorrect, this is misleading. Rally Command, Air Command, General's Orders and many other "utility skills" available to Warriors, are not available in max mitigation specs.

    That's akin to saying Rogues bring more to the table if they dropped some points from RS into other trees. - Doable in content that's irrelevant, but not worth discussing for progression raiding.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shieldy View Post
    warriors have a billion things they bring to the raid, im not going to list them all but just in comparison to rogue tanks who have wellness, warrior tanks have rallying command and in addition, aid command. rogues have defer death, warriors have no permission to die. rogues have planar attraction, warriors have sgts order, rift summon and generals order.
    Just to note, warriors don't have any of those things except either Sergeant's Order or Void Summon in any of the specs that have comparable damage mitigation to other classes' tank souls, the other stuff you mentioned is in high Warlord which doesn't allow you to pick up 38 Reaver. Rogue and Cleric tanks have all of their respective abilities in the standard tank builds.
    Last edited by TheGrinnz; 08-17-2012 at 10:08 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ianto Jones View Post
    The mitigation looks the same on paper, but try healing a Warrior tank through Laethys and Maelforge; then, try healing a Rogue tank. Rogues are inferior, very much so, in non-physical mitigation. The 2k or so disparity in HP pool doesn't help.
    i havent, so i cant speak for that first hand.

    its funny though, in the grand scheme of things that rogues would be behind in non-physical fights because if you remember the first dragon we killed, rogues were sought after because of their mitigation.

    clerics used to be avoidance tanks with high HP pools, and terrible threat.

    man the tank world in telara has been a rollercoaster.
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  14. #14
    RIFT Guide Writer TheGrinnz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ianto Jones View Post
    The mitigation looks the same on paper, but try healing a Warrior tank through Laethys and Maelforge; then, try healing a Rogue tank. Rogues are inferior, very much so, in non-physical mitigation. The 2k or so disparity in HP pool doesn't help.
    This may be "on paper" but until I can find a reason for the disparity I'm going to keep looking. Magic mitigation between the three tanks is relatively even, from what I've learned today; Rogues get some resistance from Guardian Phase and Warriors can point into it in Warlord but all in all they're similar. Physical on the other hand is more diverse, with Clerics being the furthest behind (unless MoL provides a significant enough armor bonus to make up for it?) and Rogues being at an armor disadvantage as well.
    Last edited by TheGrinnz; 08-17-2012 at 10:16 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheGrinnz View Post
    Just to note, warriors don't have any of those things except either Sergeant's Order or Void Summon in any of the specs that have comparable damage mitigation to other classes' tank souls, the other stuff you mentioned is in high Warlord which doesn't allow you to pick up 38 Reaver. Rogue and Cleric tanks have all of their respective abilities in the standard tank builds.
    my point was that if you needed a tank that has those Rogue abilities, you can just bring a warrior who can also swap to a max mitigation build as well. it was basically assuming a multitank scenario where you have a warrior and a __________.

    theres nothing wrong with 44wl/22pali and it has everything but generals order, wich honestly isnt needed. makes a great second tank or off/add tank.
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