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Thread: Massive difference between Melee rogue and melee warrior DPS

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    Champion Wifeagro's Avatar
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    Default Massive difference between Melee rogue and melee warrior DPS

    Ive recently rolled a Warrior with primary intent to tank. I dps with him on raids when i do not OT for certain fights. My Warrior DPs gear sucks its primaraly tank gear. While my rogue is strictly DPS all the gear is dps gear including sigil. My 51 point champ out DPs's my rogue by 400 to 500 dps everytime with crap DPs gear. It is simply ridiculous, its not the champ is OP its that the melee rogues suck horribly in energy consumption. combine it with war finishers only requiring 3 point finishers , melee rogue will always be sub par. I dont know how this issue has still not been balanced it was this way at launch . How in the world is this still not addressed almost 18 months later. I am sure there is some magic bullet spec that can compete with warriors with some assinine rotation. but at the core this should never be the case for a low HP low survivbility rogue.

    This is the primary reason i quit at 1.3 i did not wanna play a ranged spec rogue right now i am satisfied playing my warrior but this needs to be addressed its simply unacceptable to have this issue 18 months after launch.

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    Ascendant Rounded's Avatar
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    ON a cleavy fight there's no comparison against a warrior, but on single-target fights a rogue should stay ahead, unless gear difference is in the warrior's favor.

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    RIFT Guide Writer Zyzyx's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rounded View Post
    ON a cleavy fight there's no comparison against a warrior, but on single-target fights a rogue should stay ahead, unless gear difference is in the warrior's favor.
    Too bad there are very few single-target, non-movement boss encounters where you are able to stay behind the boss. Those conditions must first be met to use the one spec that keeps up with or passes warrior single target dps.

    Rogue melee is falling behind. We can only hope the changes in Storm legion will put rogue dps back ahead of warrior dps to account for our lower hp. No foreseeable class changes in 1.10.
    Last edited by Zyzyx; 07-29-2012 at 11:10 AM.

    Quote Originally Posted by Daglar View Post
    When time allows I'll be looking at the issue with the class guys.

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    Champion Wifeagro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rounded View Post
    ON a cleavy fight there's no comparison against a warrior, but on single-target fights a rogue should stay ahead, unless gear difference is in the warrior's favor.
    this is not the case , Rogue ranged will out perform war dps but not a melee spec espically assassin soul. it coompletely falls apart past its intial burst

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    Ascendant Mayi's Avatar
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    From what I've seen warriors are about even in single target dps, including Sin-RS. On Ituziel the top parses by a Sin-RS and warrior in guild are both 4600, our top BM is 4550.

    Our Ituziel parses go: Mages 4700-5k, Sin-RS 4400-4600, Warriors 4400-4600, Ranger 4200-4400.

    Then in aoe encounters warriors are top, mages stick to single target dps builds so parse the same as Ituziel and ranger is about 2/3 of the aoe at most of a warrior's. Rogues can keep up in aoe by playing sab but the single target dps is just over 3/4 the single target dps of a warrior so there isn't much of a point unless you can aoe the entire encounter.

    Rogue dps definitely feels to be falling behind but with them revamping classes with the expansion don't expect anything to change until then. Just think of it this way, it could be worse... you could be a cleric.
    Last edited by Mayi; 07-29-2012 at 02:31 PM.
    I rite a gooded guide for rouges.

    NB-Sin Guide - http://forums.riftgame.com/rift-gene...-sin-spec.html

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    Champion Wifeagro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mayi View Post
    From what I've seen warriors are about even in single target dps, including Sin-RS. On Ituziel the top parses by a Sin-RS and warrior in guild are both 4600, our top BM is 4550.

    Our Ituziel parses go: Mages 4700-5k, Sin-RS 4400-4600, Warriors 4400-4600, Ranger 4200-4400.

    Then in aoe encounters warriors are top, mages stick to single target dps builds so parse the same as Ituziel and ranger is about 2/3 of the aoe at most of a warrior's. Rogues can keep up in aoe by playing sab but the single target dps is just over 3/4 the single target dps of a warrior so there isn't much of a point unless you can aoe the entire encounter.

    Rogue dps definitely feels to be falling behind but with them revamping classes with the expansion don't expect anything to change until then. Just think of it this way, it could be worse... you could be a cleric.
    ya but at least i could heal lol

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    Melee rogues do feel like poor man's warrior dps but I think it's less about dps but more about just lacking the necessary tools that melee in rift seems to need.

    Here's the 4 most important requirements for a good melee build apart from just raw dps.
    1. ability to quickly change targets
    2. mobility
    3. cleave
    4. something to do when it's impossible to be in melee due to mechanics
    5. it's possible to actually use it

    Just about all warrior builds are good at switching targets, only BM is based on dots and attack points are on the warrior instead of the target. NB and BS are both very dot based with NB being a bit better at target switches, BD can switch decently right after a finisher but otherwise not. Rogue melee is almost like tunnel vision, you see one target and dps that until it dies. If the fight requires something else then you are expected to not melee.

    NB has no gap closer abilities and does not have access to them from other souls. BS has plenty of gap closers but using them for mobility has a high chance of messing up the rotation and dps. BD has one gap closer which it can use when it's actually needed.

    NB cleave is pitiful due to lack of aoe finisher so the cleaving is actually more about getting more combo points from adds and the dps won't kill anything. BS has no cleave at all. BD has some cleave but it's a lot worse than what warriors can do.

    NB is decent from range, BS has pitiful ranged dps and BD has absolutely no ranged abilities at all.

    Point number 5 is mostly about bloodstalker since it's almost like a rule that some mechanic prevents us from using it properly.

    So it's not so much about rogues not doing enough melee dps but none of our builds being able to properly fill the melee dps role that fight mechanics would require. Of course it would be nice to have competitive dps in other builds than just bloodstalker too.

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    Ascendant Mayi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wifeagro View Post
    ya but at least i could heal lol
    Who knows with the expansion, maybe we could heal too. With how dps is looking I imagine most guilds would prefer rogue healing to a mage too (beyond maybe one chloro) since their dps is so much higher.... right now. With the expansion things should be shaken up and change.
    Last edited by Mayi; 07-29-2012 at 04:31 PM.
    I rite a gooded guide for rouges.

    NB-Sin Guide - http://forums.riftgame.com/rift-gene...-sin-spec.html

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    Champion Wifeagro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gery View Post
    Melee rogues do feel like poor man's warrior dps but I think it's less about dps but more about just lacking the necessary tools that melee in rift seems to need.

    Here's the 4 most important requirements for a good melee build apart from just raw dps.
    1. ability to quickly change targets
    2. mobility
    3. cleave
    4. something to do when it's impossible to be in melee due to mechanics
    5. it's possible to actually use it

    Just about all warrior builds are good at switching targets, only BM is based on dots and attack points are on the warrior instead of the target. NB and BS are both very dot based with NB being a bit better at target switches, BD can switch decently right after a finisher but otherwise not. Rogue melee is almost like tunnel vision, you see one target and dps that until it dies. If the fight requires something else then you are expected to not melee.

    NB has no gap closer abilities and does not have access to them from other souls. BS has plenty of gap closers but using them for mobility has a high chance of messing up the rotation and dps. BD has one gap closer which it can use when it's actually needed.

    NB cleave is pitiful due to lack of aoe finisher so the cleaving is actually more about getting more combo points from adds and the dps won't kill anything. BS has no cleave at all. BD has some cleave but it's a lot worse than what warriors can do.

    NB is decent from range, BS has pitiful ranged dps and BD has absolutely no ranged abilities at all.

    Point number 5 is mostly about bloodstalker since it's almost like a rule that some mechanic prevents us from using it properly.

    So it's not so much about rogues not doing enough melee dps but none of our builds being able to properly fill the melee dps role that fight mechanics would require. Of course it would be nice to have competitive dps in other builds than just bloodstalker too.
    All my parses between my 2 chrs were done on the boss dummy with no movement. Purely sustained over 2 and a half minutes my war was consistently 400 to 500 higher. 25 to 30% consistently higher then my rogue. My dps gear is 4 piece blighted assassin and . My war uses his tank sigil and reaver blighted. Still out performs my rogue
    . I dont think its any thing about abilities it appears the main reason is energy starvation. My war never runs out and my rogue is constanly tapped after 8 seconds. Combine that with a 3point finisher compared to 5 its bad

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wifeagro View Post
    All my parses between my 2 chrs were done on the boss dummy with no movement. Purely sustained over 2 and a half minutes my war was consistently 400 to 500 higher. 25 to 30% consistently higher then my rogue. My dps gear is 4 piece blighted assassin and . My war uses his tank sigil and reaver blighted. Still out performs my rogue
    . I dont think its any thing about abilities it appears the main reason is energy starvation. My war never runs out and my rogue is constanly tapped after 8 seconds. Combine that with a 3point finisher compared to 5 its bad
    I was talking about rogues in a raid environment. Parsing unbuffed on dummy does not represent that at all since like you have noticed the builds don't even work without fervor.

  11. #11
    Champion Wifeagro's Avatar
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    Yes gap is smaller in raid enviroment. Espically if rogue has hk or id gear.and fervor helps.it is across the board though it should be the reverse. Rogue should be out performing across the board you cant call the class performing evenly nor ist logicaly acceptable for 70 to 80% of the community to play tanged rogue because its so bad in the majority of the game

  12. #12
    General of Telara
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    We need Sabdancer back; it had it all!

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    I think warrior dps is in ok-osj shape right now, with about the right benefit in terms of high aoe and ST, so compensate for being melee only in a game laced with anti-melee mechanics. Rogue melee does need some love, as it has to deal with the same issues while not having the benefits.

    However, your numbers are way off. Even accounting for energy starvation, to have that sort of gap with that sort of gear, you are doing something wrong.

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    Ascendant Mayi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vitto View Post
    We need Sabdancer back; it had it all!
    Yea, sabdancer is like what warriors are now. Taking a hit in single target dps (compared to mages) in exchange for great aoe. Always loved that spec.

    Right now it looks like mages are king of single target dps and warriors of aoe dps. Is there really another kind? It would be nice if the classes could each have their own strengths where they shine but once single target and aoe dps are taken what's left? Someone has to be top dps afterall so I'm not saying nerf X class to make my class the best at X, I'd just like to have the role for a rogue in a raid further defined. When we had MM it was raid utility, but with MM dps being so bad you can't play it and in the roles we do play (ranger, NB and Sin-RS) we have no raid utility (except ranger armor debuff) so you can't even say rogues are providing raid utility.
    I rite a gooded guide for rouges.

    NB-Sin Guide - http://forums.riftgame.com/rift-gene...-sin-spec.html

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    the OP is using assasin wich isnt really a dps build its a pvp build with dps and utility.

    champ is a bit over the top good right now, its ST is way too high considering the aoe it does all the time. if it was brought down just a tad to sab/stormcaller levels it would be fine.

    because of this there are just some fights where its going to be impossible to beat a warrior, if theres a few adds in there their dps just skyrockets, were our aoe dps soul requires more special circumstances to shine.

    so understanding that champ aoe/st is just out of whack, rogue dps is pretty good if you ask me. mages have crap aoe in thier st spec like we do and its a hard spec to play esp with movement. no rogue specs are over the top difficult and we have multiple options for specs to run although our top spec could do just a tad more dps to warrant its shortcomings..

    notice i didnt mention clerics

    i also always beat warriors in single target fights so it might just be a gear level issue that i havent run into yet, i dunno.
    Last edited by Shieldy; 07-29-2012 at 10:55 PM.
    Shieldy 60 Warrior
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