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Thread: Bard Changes

  1. #1
    Champion Kithiel's Avatar
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    Default Bard Changes

    So we have an expansion upcoming, which seems a great opportunity to make a few much-needed changes to the Bard soul. To that end, I'd like to re-address some of the more popular complaints I've seen and offer a few suggestions:

    1) Spamming Motifs is annoying and not fun.

    Create combo effects for motifs based on the order in which they're cast. For example: casting Tenacity, Regeneration, and Focus (in that order) might trigger "Melody of Precision", increasing the group's Hit and Focus. Make 4 or 5 such combo abilities and that would necessitate tailoring Motifs to an ever-changing situation, which would be far more interesting than constantly spamming the same keys in the same order. It would also make more than one Bard in a raid a viable option.

    2) Bards don't contribute enough healing, or too much of their healing is overheals.

    I don't personally agree with this one, particularly since it seems likely to me that the new Rogue soul is going to be a main healer. It would however be nice if Bards could queue as a healer, and it would be nice to see some benefit from overhealing. Perhaps a minor stacking buff that grants a small percent increase per stack to the effectiveness of the Bard's Motifs?

    3) Bard debuffs get overwritten, are not powerful enough, are not unique enough, or all of the above.

    Making some debuffs clearly better than others, thus doing away with the constant overwriting would appear to be an obvious solution. It wouldn't hurt to add a little diversity in debuffs and make them stack, either.

    4) Bards don't have enough utility abilities, and/or the ones they do have are not effective enough.

    In my previous experience with MMO's Bards could pretty much do it all. Not as well as some other classes, but they could do everything to a USEFUL degree. I stress 'useful' because Bard charm in Rift is the next best thing to worthless. Add that to the fact that Bards have no purge, cure, charm, pacify or invis and you've got a utility class with very little actual utility. I'm not sure why Bards don't have access to these abilities; they have had them in other MMO's and they weren't unbalancing or game-breaking. Now, before you go and flame me, yes I am well aware that this isn't Vanguard or Everquest or whatever. The point still remains though.

    5) Bard run speed is underpowered and not very useful.

    To be more blunt, it sucks. I can see why it sucks....the world initially was relatively small and supersonic Bards would have made it seem smaller. With the world now tripling in size, it would be nice to see a significant increase in Bard speed, at least on par with the top end mounts. I know some people are going to whine and cry about "free mounts", but people will always whine and cry when another class/soul gets a nice upgrade. The funny thing is, I've been playing Bards since Everquest and I have never heard anyone complain about Bard speed while they were grouped with me and enjoying the benefits of it. Not once in 10 years. Quite the opposite, in fact. Trion keeps preaching the "fun to play" approach, and so many people say that Bards are not fun to play...well, it's hard not to have fun when you can run like a cheetah.

    6) Cadence cannot be used on the move.

    Bards are generally a mobile class. With the exception of casting buffs, Everything we do is useable on the move. Cadence does an insignificant amount of damage and not a whole lot of healing. So why is it necessary to stand still while using it? This is an easy fix.

    The above arguments are only my opinions and suggestions, and should be considered as such. They are not meant to be "right" or "wrong". I appreciate any constructive corrections, input or replies.
    Last edited by Kithiel; 07-26-2012 at 03:28 AM.

  2. #2
    Sword of Telara Calibrex's Avatar
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    I, too, believe that utility classes should be second to none with their unique abilities.
    Where's the Auction House to buy more DPS for my cleric?

  3. #3
    Prophet of Telara Efaicia's Avatar
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    I agree with 1. However I do not think they should make the motifs macro-able..i think that would just deplete and over simplify an already watered down and mindless soul. I have been yelling for more Resonance like abilities since day 1. I cant fathom how they have had the coding for it and have not used it more to make the soul more interesting.

    2. A bards job is to buff and offer support healing. (in this game) People need to remember this.

    3.A bards job is to BUFF and offer support healing. Why are people so adament that bards have the worst of buffs, while scattering the majority of good, usefull buffs out to other classes? Why do Archons get to be best at buffing AND debuffing AND can dps/heal depending on spec? If Bard soul is JUST for buffing, how is it even remotely game breaking if they are the best at what they are built for??

    4. I am with you on this one, I'm used to support/utility classes that are good at being support/utility.

    5. I think I have read more often complaints about the range of cadence instead of the movement.

    Good post, much needed changes!
    Last edited by Efaicia; 07-26-2012 at 06:04 AM.

  4. #4
    Plane Walker
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    Hey OP,

    There are alot of threads like this already, and be it lazy like me or whatever, you could probably find them pretty easy lol.

    But anyway, speaking of cheetah's. Maybe a burstable speed buff like spirit of cheetah from EQ1? Would have to be longer than the BD souls' speed boost though. To make it unique to the bard. Say 18-22 seconds or something. I don' t think PVP'ers would want a bunch of battle bards running amok in WF's. Can't hit what ya can't catch, melee classes would have a meltdown.

  5. #5
    Soulwalker
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    Make it worth to go up to 40 point in the soul :
    Verse of vitality is a poor heal with a 60 sec CD ... it barely scale with AP.
    Verse of Joy was good when war/rogues had huge energy issue and caster's mana pool weren't that big. Now it only benefit on mages with charges and maybe for rogues if fervor isn't up.

    Half of anthem are never used.

    Cadence have to be either melee OR range to scale with other souls, not just "whatever you want but you can't benefit from ranged/melee skills (ie shadow fire, blade finesse, keen eye ect)"

  6. #6
    Plane Walker Gehrgontra's Avatar
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    1) would be an interesting way to add a higher skill component to the soul. This might even help ensure the job just doesn't get assigned by "who has the lowest dps?" or similar measures.

    2) dunno about that one either :/ I mean in the guild I used to raid with our bard was consistently outhealing half of our clerics. But it would be nice to see something done with overhealing, even if it is rather minimal it's better than nothing.

    3) as far as 20 man raids go (I assume this is where the complaint arises thanks to there being an Archon) Bard debuffs are still extremely useful. I used to Archon, and for trash I would always let the Bard do the debuffing because it was AoE and mine were just single target. My debuffs were up for most bosses just because they last 5 minutes, not because they're better.

    4) no argument here. Give Bards more ways to contribute in more situations!

    5) lolwut? I mean maybe if you got runspeed before a mount I could see that much of an increase being useful for open world stuff, but in raids this would just get people killed instead of saving lives in some situations as it does currently. Especially if Trion keeps putting us near cliffs and pools of bad as they do so love doing, super speed + lag spike = death.

    6) yeah, I always thought it odd that an ability that shares its name with marching songs can't be used on the move. Wouldn't be OP in the least, and it would allow Bards to help heal in situations like Grug's tower phase.

  7. #7
    Ascendant Mirimon's Avatar
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    pssst, somebody merge the last year worth of bard threads since beta pls.. we are all requesting the same things, and mostly have similar great ideas. The list has grown long indeed.. and infact it may be a challenge to actually publish one... hm....

    Anywho, yes, it was time to change bard a year ago, with a new expansion coming, and new souls (they have time to make a new soul but none to fix barding?) again devs.. I emplore you to invite us onto a PTS and iron out barding issues.

  8. #8
    Champion Kithiel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Efaicia View Post
    I think I have read more often complaints about the range of cadence instead of the movement
    Good point! I had meant to mention this in the original post but somehow managed to forget it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gehrgontra View Post
    lolwut? I mean maybe if you got runspeed before a mount I could see that much of an increase being useful for open world stuff, but in raids this would just get people killed instead of saving lives in some situations as it does currently. Especially if Trion keeps putting us near cliffs and pools of bad as they do so love doing, super speed + lag spike = death.
    I can certainly see the lag spike/death issue, but there are an almost endless number of applications for traditional Bard run speed, and raiding is only one factor.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mirimon View Post
    invite us onto a PTS and iron out barding issues.
    That's a really good idea.

  9. #9
    Plane Walker Vera's Avatar
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    The more I think about it, the more I come to the conclusion they should just scrap the entire soul, and build it back up from scratch.

  10. #10
    Ascendant Mirimon's Avatar
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    I second the motion

  11. #11
    Champion Kithiel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mirimon View Post
    I second the motion
    Motion carried.

  12. #12
    Ascendant Mayi's Avatar
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    Yea, I said the same thing about a year ago. I think bard threads are a waste of time though. Bard is the only soul in game I can think of that's actually worse then it was at release. There's been pages and pages of bard feedback with nothing done about it, I think at this point the devs know the issues they just don't agree that they should be implemented.
    I rite a gooded guide for rouges.

    NB-Sin Guide - http://forums.riftgame.com/rift-gene...-sin-spec.html

  13. #13
    Champion Highland's Avatar
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    Bard from parabellum: /signed

    No Quarter? Roshan if im correct :P

    Blightweald - DPS Rogue and apparently best bard EU - 14k Achievs

  14. #14
    Plane Walker Vera's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mayi View Post
    Yea, I said the same thing about a year ago. I think bard threads are a waste of time though. Bard is the only soul in game I can think of that's actually worse then it was at release. There's been pages and pages of bard feedback with nothing done about it, I think at this point the devs know the issues they just don't agree that they should be implemented.
    For all we know, they might not be. For all we know, Trion might be compiling a list of all the ideas the community has come up, and working on completely reworking the soul. Trion moves in mysterious ways. They know we want Bard changed, and to my knowledge, they haven't come out and said "we're not planning on making any changes".

    Reworking Bard would take a lot of effort, and there are a lot of balancing implications. With the new rogue soul coming in SL, I think Trion will realise that there's a great opportunity to reset Bard.

    Until a Trion developer comes out and says "We're not changing Bard in the future", we may as well keep discussing it. Not like there's much else to discuss, anyway.

  15. #15
    Rift Disciple Remli's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Efaicia View Post
    2. A bards job is to buff and offer support healing. (in this game) People need to remember this.

    3.A bards job is to BUFF and offer support healing. Why are people so adament that bards have the worst of buffs, while scattering the majority of good, usefull buffs out to other classes? Why do Archons get to be best at buffing AND debuffing AND can dps/heal depending on spec? If Bard soul is JUST for buffing, how is it even remotely game breaking if they are the best at what they are built for??
    Because of the way Archons operate, I'd love to see Bards have cooldowns that can synergize with Flaring Power and Power Drain, etc. I've said it before and I'll say it again: If it weren't for Rogues requiring Fervor, Bards would be extinct and Archons would still be golden.

    It's a bit disheartening that Elrar has voiced that Trion likes the state of Bard.

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