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Thread: So about the MM in PvP....

  1. #1
    RIFT Guide Writer Nynja's Avatar
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    Default So about the MM in PvP....

    Hey guys,

    so i am testing for a long time various MM Specs for PvP and i am not really satisfied with any of them!

    Here's what i tested:

    Full MM - the glass cannon

    http://rift.zam.com/en/stc.html?t=0M....EGtRqdAudR.-7

    and a variation of it like this

    http://rift.zam.com/en/stc.html?t=0M...GtRqdAudR.V.-7

    Pros: Very high sustained and some burst dmg
    Useful in Pve Raid (saves a role)
    Cons: Its glass Dude

    Then i tried the old variant:

    Shadowgunner (or whatever xD)

    44MM/22 RP

    http://rift.zam.com/en/stc.html?t=0M...dR.V0xIzRoo.-7

    Pros: High Mobility and survivability
    Cons: I have the feeling to deal no dmg!

    Now i am stuck with the last variant i just invented for my playstyle.

    48MM/18 RP

    http://rift.zam.com/en/stc.html?t=0M...AudR.V0xGzM.-7

    Its just the average of both to get lucky with them (Love the guardian stance for whitefall)

    No heres my Problem...maybe a general...
    I followed all the tips about stay at 35+ meter, purging warriors use whatever cooldown i have to kite the enemies...but....

    IT DOES NOT WORK!

    The Warriors i purged throw their spears after me and i am dead, the speed buffs from MM (Swift and so on) are ridicioulus...i just don't get the feeling i am faster then all the others...

    I guess its a makro issue...maybe i just schould play with swift shot and speed finisher only idk...

    When i'm in CC f.e. on the double does not work either Oo i stay in cc so i am dead because all the players have time to stand next to me...

    SO

    Here's my question! XD

    After weeks of testing i did not found the right way to play the MM....
    How does the mystical "Kite" works against all classes?
    How can you be as fast as possible and keep this speed buffs up?
    And which spec would you recommend for that?

    P.S.
    I wouldnt ask if their wasn't some special player who (almost) never dies in BG's and has the top killstreaks between the rogues!

    P.P.S.:

    I am sorry for my english but i am german and INRAGE xD
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  2. #2
    Prophet of Telara Kadeth's Avatar
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    I PvP on a 51 MM and yes it is a glass cannon but, being typically a mage player, I actually like my glass cannon.
    I may not survive so well, but look out while I am alive, I will knock the tar out of you. Silence, Eradicate, restrict movement, use cd to kite and, you can do a good bit of damage plus aid the rest of your team in taking the target down. Just hope you don't have to go solo on much but another glass cannon.

    It is not for those that don't like glass cannons and want high survivability but, it is a fun, challenging build to play in PvP and, quite frankly, like most glass cannons, rocks in PvE.
    Life is what you make it so make it good, even when it isn't.

  3. #3
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    I use Shadow Gunner as I'm the person who developed it and made the guide for it. You also have an incorrect spec for Shadow Gunner. I also use 51 Sab and I sometimes use 38/28 NB/RS.

    I stick by Shadow Gunner, reason being the high mobility and damage. You use Strafe/Rapid Fire after you phase shift for the bonus 20% damage. Hits hard!

  4. #4
    RIFT Guide Writer Nynja's Avatar
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    why it is 20%?
    and sry for not linking the original spec^^

    don't you need eridicate against warriors?
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  5. #5
    Ascendant Violacea's Avatar
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    Not dying on a marksmen basically means taking less risks. But you have tools to afford taking risks. But with those tools and conservative play you can stay alive very well and pick off just what is at ease to you. With the range and the abilities really it speaks for itself as far as kiting. proc/reactive run speeds, a finisher that gives run speed, sprint ability, retreat. Then things like your root and KB to keep people away from you if they do catch up. It's just a personal trial and error thing to see what works for you. Fitting the right balance between when you need to use movement abilities or when you can maximize damage (like standing still).

    The specs I toss around on MM are 49mm/17sin, 51mm/10nb/5rs and 51mm/14rng/1rs. I honestly think their damage still somewhat sucks but, that is what you get for the longest range and insane mobility. They also have some of the most consistent damage potential and are the hardest to truly interrupt their entire flow. Even on the run they can build CP and hit finishers just fine. Sometimes the consistent damage (often ime) trumps having heavier damage at the cost of needing 20m to melee style range to even begin doing your thing.

    The paradox is, warriors have a lot of MM counters, it really will come down to who re-acts the fastest. I do not know the specifics of warrior souls but they have many abilities among them that I do know work as good counters to MM movement. Rushes/roots, ports/snares, pulls etc. Granted these will all still require a warrior to need 20m range (I believe) so you still have a 15m window to basically be untouchable. But even a common warrior spec I see (sorry I dont know specifics again) has a passive increase to run speed buff. Rogues really are more of a mage shut down/counter kind of calling, can pester clerics too. I do think we show most vulnerability to warriors though overall. So again, it just is a matter of overall situation awareness. Balance of abilities, knowing who is around you or who can sneak up behind and some fast reaction - as a rogue who decides to go stealth and take out a MM, it usually ends in either them killing the MM or the MM getting away. Usually ^.^

    Nothing terribly wrong with those specs really, not ones I would use, as I listed mine. A strong MM build really is the same at core as far as gameplay is concerned among all the specs. It's just a matter of what you want from the others. I prefer maximum damage and don't do the RS mixed specs but see people who work them well. A 44 - 51mm, even without a secondary soul, is actually quite capable. It will just lack desirable performance. So really it just comes down to your preference, there isn't a true right answer or one that 'works better' in an unbiased manner. I think the MM is all about being familiar. It has to be second nature without much reaction time at all to use some of the sprint abilities and having a strong feel for your range and awareness.

    As for your specs though, I guess if I could alter them a tad. The 15rangr/51mm. I would ditch BD as a third soul because with hit on all pvp weapons, side steps is losing its real potential. I just like using the RS as the third there. 14 gets you the important ability from ranger, and the 15th point isn't anything that helps the 'glass cannon' aspect. RS you can at least increase your AP by 3% and you get a blink. Which IMO will save you way more times than side steps will. I would probably even use a 0RS before a 0BD in all my specs now for PvP. The blink is very nice for 0pt.

    The others I could debate but in the end I couldn't really call them wrong. I saw you brought up macros. If you wonder, I only use 2 macro's for MM. One is I tie lightning fury > fan out. I would always cast lightning fury before fan out really. Another is I tie rapid fire shot > hasted shot. Mostly just to have 1 instant finisher button. But I also do keep Hasted Shot on my hotbar if I want the run speed and rapid fire shot is up. That's it for macros I find useful.

    It's easy to get stomped by a warrior if they catch you. They pack a ton of counters to our stuff. So it just comes down to often if we know how to time it right. You learn little quirks along the way too mechanically. Like how a warrior rush will stop you mid re-treat. You learn to do things like anticipate a rush if you feel it is going to happen before you skirt away - then after it happens, use retreat after the break free. That is among many little things you pickup just by simply playing and that it's hard to be taught or learn from others. People do things differently, for me I can only recommend what I know has worked for myself. It's just an endless trial and error until you find what sits closest to your desire. Live (play) and learn Only way I typed this whole mess up. Just screwing around for months.
    Last edited by Violacea; 07-06-2012 at 07:58 AM.
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    http://rift.zam.com/en/stc.html?t=1M...AudR.V0xIzR.-7

    That is the link to the Shadow Gunner build.

  7. #7
    Ascendant Galibier's Avatar
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    I find MM works well BUT you have to have the right build and run with others. If you are caught alone you are screwed. I run a build that also has RS so when I know I am focused I have the run speed from my attacks, the run speed toggle, retreat and a blink. That is usually enough to get me out of dodge.

    I also don't really go for a focused kill until I am sure I am not the focus of attention. I purge, silence and apply DoTs all on the move. I don't worry about purging the warrior unless he is clearly focused on someone else. My job is the silence and purge healers, casters and other MM. Then when I see a prime target I burn the sob down. Basically I am combat support and a rl pack predator. It's not about who brings down the prey, we will all feast, some pack members flank, chase off the strong etc. As long as the prey gets taken down its dinner time and I don't mind being the guy who hamstrung him so someone can bring him down.

    I have been running 51mm/10rng/5rs. Probably going to try swapping the Rng for NB, but as long as you know you primary job is to flank, suppress and harass, kill second you are gtg.
    Last edited by Galibier; 07-06-2012 at 08:06 PM.
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  8. #8
    Ascendant Zaros's Avatar
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    Take a look at the Marksman section in the Rogue PVP guide I linked in my signature. It should have everything you need to know, and if you have more questions I'm happy to field them.
    ~Quiescent

  9. #9
    RIFT Guide Writer Nynja's Avatar
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    I read your guide before i wrote his up....IMHO i did not find an answer to my question...

    Vio you did a great job in writing down so much detailed information..that helped me a lot....not because i learned something really new but more that you argued so well that i have to admit:

    I can't have a MM with high sustained dmg and enough defense to kill every non-healing class in 1v1, 1v2..
    so when i want to steal the stone in whitefall bg i will hope to be alone in enemy territory...

    I was just looking for a spec on range that has the same aspects as my melee build 32sin/16nb/18rp...
    high burst, average self-heal and quiete enough defense to take down 2-3 people alone...or survive in a zerg...

    So Zaros is there anything that is somthing between the glasscannon and the 44/22? because without the ports
    kiting is terrible in 1.9 especially against warriors and nb/rs...

    Maybe a spec that has 38 or less in MM?
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  10. #10
    Ascendant Mayi's Avatar
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    A spec that's in-between is this one:
    http://rift.zam.com/en/stc.html?t=0M....EGxRVzVudR.-7

    You don't have straight survivability, but what you have is permanent stealth, blinding powder (which is effective since you have no dots), foul play and cut and run. The way to get away with this build is port away, LoS and then restealth.

    Choice is yours on whether to take 0 point bladedancer for side steps or RS for the port.
    Last edited by Mayi; 07-07-2012 at 04:35 AM.
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  11. #11
    Ascendant Kyera's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nynja View Post
    I was just looking for a spec on range that has the same aspects as my melee build 32sin/16nb/18rp...
    high burst, average self-heal and quiete enough defense to take down 2-3 people alone...or survive in a zerg...
    *squints trying to see how this... what?*

    Quote Originally Posted by Nynja View Post
    So Zaros is there anything that is somthing between the glasscannon and the 44/22? because without the ports
    kiting is terrible in 1.9 especially against warriors and nb/rs...

    Maybe a spec that has 38 or less in MM?
    I know I'm not Zaros, but if you're playing a Marksman, you're either going 44+ for Eradicate (with a variety of specs for varying durability or dps, like 44 MM/22 RS, 44 MM/22 Sin, 49 MM/17 Sin), or along the lines of the 51/15 for raw dps. You're not going to keep anywhere near the durability if you shave points off of Riftstalker from the 44/22 (which gets most of its "durability" by not getting engaged in the first place), and you're not going to keep anywhere near the damage output (and lose Eradicate) if you dip below 44 MM, imo.

    So, no, for Marksman, there is no real "in between" for being in combat (the stealth builds let you kind of avoid or cherry-pick battles). I mean you could DO something like a 50MM/16RS, but I don't think that's worth it at all.
    Last edited by Kyera; 07-07-2012 at 05:14 AM.
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  12. #12
    RIFT Guide Writer Nynja's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kyera View Post
    *squints trying to see how this... what?*
    you don't believe it? its like am0ns but more obviously ...

    better than nb/rs, sin/nb, sin/rs or mm...
    Last edited by Nynja; 07-07-2012 at 05:25 AM.
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  13. #13
    Plane Walker
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    I don't see 51 mm/13 nb/2 rs around here.

    anyone wanna list the pros and cons of this spec vs a 51 mm/ 15 ranger or 51mm/10 ranger/5 rs spec?

  14. #14
    RIFT Guide Writer Nynja's Avatar
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    pros: stealth, 15% dmg on cp and finisher, 6 resist and 6% dmg, some stealth opener(20% or stun)

    against 15 rng you lose 14%dmg on all attacks 46 ap, 6% resist on all and some dots and armor debuff

    against 10 rng and 5 rp you lose 9% ap and hp the dots and resist on 6%

    overall nb is a bad trade for 15 rng in dmg and maybe also against 10/5 because AP> dmg%

    And 49/17sin is the best way if you want to stealth( of course without range opener)
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  15. #15
    Plane Walker
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    And here I thought damage % was better than ap, thanks :x

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