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  Click here to go to the first Rift Team post in this thread.   Thread: Tablets, Fervor, and Energy - Problems and Solutions

  1. #1
    RIFT Fan Site Operator Dunharrow's Avatar
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    Default Tablets, Fervor, and Energy - Problems and Solutions

    Just looking at avatars on the forums, you can figure out that there is a lot of discussion right now about Tablets. Rogues need to use them to do competitive DPS, but they're not easy to come by and other classes are not saddled with the same burden.

    Its obvious that Tablets are a problem, and the straight-line solution may seem to be to buff rogue energy regen so much that they aren't needed to avoid starvation. I don't think that is really the best solution.

    Assertion #1: Energy management is a good thing.
    Why? Simple. Rogues only have 2 resources: Combo Points and Energy. If energy regen is increased to the point that rogues never have to worry about it, then it ceases to be a resource to manage. Energy management is (and should be!) an important part of rogue gameplay. Without it, you're just mindlessly hitting buttons. With it, you have to decide if you need to hold enough energy to fire an interrupt, or if you want to save up enough for some burst damage.
    Problem #1: Energy starvation is horrible without Fervor and Tablets.
    The crux of the issue is not that energy starvation is bad, its that without fervor and tablets, rogues are so starved for energy that its frustrating to even play many specs. With tablets, we have to spend upwards of 50 plat per night (on progression) that other classes don't have to spend. That's not fun/fair either. Tablets should not give energy, and then we wouldn't need them.

    Why did I mention Fervor? Well, its actually pretty much the root of the problem. If the class is going to be balanced for damage, it has to be balanced in raids. Raids are where the hard DPS checks are, and in raids everyone has Fervor. But what about 5-mans, soloing, PvP, and dummy parses? We don't have Fervor here, and unlike other classes, we suffer for it. Fervor should not reduce energy costs, and then we wouldn't need it. Have it do something else for non-mana users or have it not affect us at all.

    Right now, Fervor is an obstacle that gets in the way of Rogues doing things outside of raids. That's not fun.
    Assertion #2: Fervor and Tablets are energy regen crutches that should be removed.
    Without Fervor and Tablets, we now have a baseline for Rogue energy regen that is the same no matter what you're doing: Soloing, grinding PAs, chronicles, PvP, 5-mans or even raiding. Does this baseline suck? Yes it does, and every rogue experiences it every day while doing almost anything besides raiding.
    Problem #2: Now that Fervor and Tablets are gone, Energy Starvation REALLY sucks. :[
    Yes it does. We'll be bottoming out our energy in every spec, doing any rotation. Even the super-efficient Marksman build would feel the burn. But we're only halfway home. What we need then would become very obvious. We need more energy. How to get that energy is open for debate.
    Solution #1: Remove Fervor and Tablets as energy regen mechanics and boost rogue base energy regen, to the levels where rogues are now with Ferver + Tablet
    The result would be no effective change in our DPS while raiding, but a significant quality-of-life improvement while doing anything else. It would also save rogues the cost of tablets and make the game a whole lot more fun.

    But I don't think its the best solution. Too many Rogue mechanics are carryovers from previous games. They have built in assumptions--assumptions like "Finishers should cost energy." Why should they?
    Solution #2: Remove Fervor and Tablets as energy regen mechanics, and further reduce rogue energy regen in combat only. Have all Rogue Finishers restore ~10 energy per combo point.
    With this mechanic, we would use energy to build combo points, and get it back by using finishers. This would further help separate us from warriors. Our combo points are tied to a target, but Finishers give us energy back.

    Are there balance issues? Hell yes, I'm sure there are. I don't have all the answers. What if a mob dies when you have 5 CPs on it? Maybe it would grant you energy back just like if you had used a finisher. But these small issues could result in a more fun way to play rogue--a way where energy management is an integral and challenging part of the class. If it sucks or it's too complicated, there's always Option #1.
    Either way, Tablets AND Fervor need to go.
    Last edited by Dunharrow; 05-07-2012 at 04:15 AM.

  2. #2
    Telaran
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    Need 10 characters again ... but just +1

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    Plane Touched Eryon's Avatar
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    Well thought out and lucid.

    The one idea I thought of while reading was along the energy management train of thought. The idea was around pacing. With our 1s GCD we can get more skills off in a shorter duration than other classes. Reactive abilities (esp in the BD tree) in conjunction with the shorter cool down period, can greatly aid in DPS output but also contribute to the energy starvation we suffer from.

    What if, instead of hammering the hotkeys or ability buttons, we started to pace the rate at which we executed them?

    I know that this would be EXTREMELY difficult but could be learned. What would the effect be? Well, for one, DPS should remain roughly consistent as we would not be running the well low as fast. Another is that high damage spikes on long encounters would flatten out as well. When you combine this with CP management ideas (ie. 3/4 per finisher) it would help even more.

    However, this would be Zen Master like training. In the heat of encounters, our reaction are understandably elevated and as such timing is one of the precepts that tend to fall by the way side.

    A player with the ability to develop their play ability to this level, however, would be God like in any given encounter though. Kind of like watching a real life Martial Arts master moving through a match. Nothing is hurried or frantic. It would all flow from one move to the next with almost effortless appearance.

    The reality though would more likely be that the actual behind the game mechanics will be manipulated in someway.

    ... still wouldn't it be awesome to see someone play at that level?
    "Might does not make right... It just makes it possible."

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    Champion
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    Also as addition to what you wrote i would not mind if they gave the cleric something similar to the buffs that the chloro and the bard have. I am probably not the only one that sighs when i see that a cleric is healing in a dungeon, because yeah, then i know i will starve when i play on my alt.

  5. #5
    Shadowlander ESFS's Avatar
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    They won't remove tablets. Just buff rogue energy to 27/s, 23 or whatever it is now is too low.

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    RIFT Fan Site Operator Dunharrow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ESFS View Post
    They won't remove tablets. Just buff rogue energy to 27/s, 23 or whatever it is now is too low.
    Just for clarity: I'm not saying they should remove tablets. I'm saying they should give mana, but not energy.

  7. #7
    Telaran
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    To be honest, I'd be satisfied if tablets were a vendor item and thus not subject to open market prices. While I am making requests, they should last an hour and persist through death.


    To be clear, I like the ideas presented in the OP better, but I would be fine with the above as well.
    Last edited by Azarian; 05-07-2012 at 03:46 AM.

  8. #8
    Soulwalker
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    or make and apothacary recipe for energy regen pot? or survival recipe?

  9. #9
    Telaran
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    I generally disagree with virtually everything that dun has to say, but not this. The only thing I would modify is instead have energy return on a scale that corresponds to # CPs used for the finisher (or left on target when mob dies). I was thinking anywhere between 1 and 3 energy per CP.
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  10. #10
    aux
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    Fervor needs to stay. Or at least Living Energy does.
    Casters get a raid performance boost in the form of Burning Purpose and there should be something offering a similar boost to melee: Fervor.

    Expensive consumables need to go, though. It's not a fun game when you have to spend most of your time farming them.
    I'm so BORED

  11. #11
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    I don't understand why they can't do the idiotic thing and increase the drop rate of tablets if you are a rogue. It seems to work unfairly for the outfitters who get cloth at a huge rate compared to anyone else. If you are a rogue and a table drops from a rift you should just get 3 instead.

  12. #12
    RIFT Fan Site Operator Dunharrow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sariina View Post
    I don't understand why they can't do the idiotic thing and increase the drop rate of tablets if you are a rogue. It seems to work unfairly for the outfitters who get cloth at a huge rate compared to anyone else. If you are a rogue and a table drops from a rift you should just get 3 instead.
    I don't think outfitters get more cloth, and I don't really think making tablets more plentiful is the best solution, though it could bring costs down.
    Last edited by Dunharrow; 05-07-2012 at 04:34 AM.

  13. #13
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    Wow, great post. Solid ideas.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dunharrow View Post
    I don't think outfitters get more cloth, and I don't really think making tablets more plentiful is the best solution, though it could bring costs down.
    Well, hopefully T3 of PA will fix that anyway, if they would actually launch it. Since you get a free tablet every 30 minutes so you'll use fewer. If you get 3 at a time if you are a rogue then you could just grab a couple of water rifts and away you go. Maybe they could get as cheap as the stupid mirrors that nobody wants ;)

    Persist through death would be nice too.. but then people would use them in PVP, which ups rogue burst in PVP. I think that's probably one of the main reasons that energy is where it is and why the devs are completely ignoring it. Maybe they could add an apoth pot that increases your max energy by 10 and increases your energy regen by 2/s. Shift the reliance from rift farming to crafting. Though I'm sure the they would make it overwrite the powersurge vials so that kind of ruins the usefulness.

    Also, outfitters get FAR more cloth than other people. Something like 3-4 times as much. I made a big stink about it on the forums when they put it in (even though the only character I had at the time was an outfitter) since it's pretty unfair to anyone else that needs cloth for anything. This is especially true now that everyone is leveling survivalist. Try it out with an alt with and without outfitting and run around an area that is easy to get to like just above reclaimers hold for 10 minutes each.

  15. #15
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    Maybe if they really wanted to try something different... I always thought of a somewhat more complex way of how energy should regenerate. It should be based on how much current energy you have. Ideally, the more current energy you have, the faster it regenerates, and if you bottom out your energy, then there will be a penalty. As such, you should be juggling your energy around the "middle" of the energy bar in most cases. Here's an example with some arbitrary numbers.

    80-100+ current energy = 30 energy regen/sec
    41-79 current energy = 27 energy regen/sec
    10-40 current energy = 23 energy regen/sec
    < 10 current energy = temporary exhaustion, energy regen goes to 15 energy/sec for 3 seconds.

    Or the easiest route, just take out things like tablets and fervor/LE and bump up our natural regen to compensate a bit.
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