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  Click here to go to the first Rift Team post in this thread.   Thread: Tablets, Fervor, and Energy - Problems and Solutions

  1. #196
    RIFT Guide Writer Zyzyx's Avatar
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    Stay on target.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wulf9 View Post
    This thread was a different angle on a very longstanding problem that has been discussed in all kinds of detail. The problems included:
    • Rogues need a none-craftable consumable to do the damage they are balanced around.
    • Rogues need specced fervor to do their best damage, which requires a bard and the sacrifice of another good raid buff.
    • Rogues cannot practice or test their dps builds on a dummy.
    • Rogues cannot do their rotations smoothly in 5mans and often 10 mans, and their dps takes a bigger hit than other classes in those groups because of it.
    • Rogues have no form of energy management that they can engage in. There's no ageless ice or purpose for rogues. There are no potions you can strategically pop, and well timed verse of joy will not do the job. You will run out of energy and you will not be able to do anything about it actively. You sit, and you wait. You stop playing for a brief period, until you can use an ability again.

    Passive tablet addresses which of those issues? The first, only. Which was so ridiculous it beggars belief that it wasn't addresses months ago. It's like having to spam tempest mirrors to keep up with another class.

    Don't get me wrong, adding a point of regen is a good thing. But the statement that the main energy regen problem will not be addressed is very much not. This is not some new issue that got a quick and welcome response. During the time this has been a problem, warrior energy problems were wiped out, and every one of the warrior's dps souls was fundamentally and successfully rebalanced.

    Maybe the devs are sorry they removed energy as a mechanic for warriors. I am too. Maybe they want resource management to be important, and fervor to be useful to all. I do too. But it just doesn't work for melee with tiny pools and no active regen. Rogues don't manage their energy, they suffer for lack of it from the start of a fight to the finish. Fervor is not a useful extra for rogues, as it is to Clerics and Mages (in long fights). It is a requirement. Rogues are balanced around it, and without it Rogue builds are not balanced.

    Strategic mana management, which is affected by raid support classes and actively worked on by the Cleric/Mage herself is engaging and interesting. Having greyed out buttons and nothing you can do about it is very much not. Being unable to parse or practice your mainstream builds on a dummy, or use them effectively in dungeons, cannot surely be working as intended.

    Energy starvation adds frustration to the game and discourages people from trying interesting rogue builds. There is no interesting gameplay, strategy or skill associated with it.

    Quite simply, fixing it will make Rift better.
    Quote Originally Posted by Akizuki View Post
    Our problem run much deeper than that and seriously need to be looked at. We go from 100 to 0 Energy too fast and once we get there we are stuck there.

    I did the test myself, using the most basic attack rogue and warrior get: Savage Strike and Power Strike

    0/0/0 Build, I stopped the parse as soon the message "not enough energy" or "not enough power" would appear on my screen unless stated otherwise.

    Rogue (Savage Strike):
    Time: 13 sec
    hits: 13


    Warrior (Power Strike):
    Time: 8m33s (never ran out of power, not even close, it's impossible to run out of power by spamming Power Strike)
    hits: 333

    So kept testing, what about Mighty Blow? an AoE attack, surely I will run dry in no time, right?

    Mighty Blow (6pts in Champion, no Grim Satisfaction)
    Time: 53s
    hits: 34

    So a warrior spamming AoE attack can last 40s longer than a rogue spamming single target attack, good stuff, but what if...:

    Mighty Blow (9pts in Champion, Grim Satisfaction 3/3, 27.41% Crit)
    Time: 7m15s (I didn't run out of power, I never went below 50%, I stopped because I was bored and insulted)
    hits: 282
    Are both good posts that focus on the issue at hand.
    Last edited by Zyzyx; 05-08-2012 at 07:32 AM.

    Quote Originally Posted by Daglar View Post
    When time allows I'll be looking at the issue with the class guys.

  2. #197
    Prophet of Telara Valfador's Avatar
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    Instead of removing fervor, simple solution is to just add a 10% energy consumption buff as an aura in every tree.
    It will be just like having a chloro healer. For raids if you want the most dps use fervor. To me the issue of getting low on energy is fine... but not like it is now where you can use 4 trick shot, then be energy starved.
    0.3/8 ID 2.123/4 PF

  3. #198
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    Well, at least I can finally take this signature down. Took a few months.
    The first issue I would like feedback on is the Power Regeneration. I have tweaked it to a point but I need feedback on it from actual players (You guys) in a real world environment to fine tune it. The value is not final and will likely need to be changed. The goal is to minimize the use and need for Tablets and make players who do not use them more viable without completely removing the use of the Tablets in game

  4. #199
    Shadowlander silentb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daglar View Post
    While there is a lot of passion out there about modifying other aspects of energy regen the one that I'm going to approve and push through for now is as follows:

    Rogue energy regen will be changed from 23 per second to 24 per second.
    Tablets will have energy regeneration removed from them.
    This gives you the effective energy regen of a character using a tablet - for free and all the time.

    We will not be addressing concerns regarding fervor or other energy regen buffs at this moment in time.

    Daglar
    Lead Game Designer: Rift
    Any word on when this will actually happen?

  5. #200
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    Quote Originally Posted by silentb View Post
    Any word on when this will actually happen?
    Jeez man, give him a few days at least ;)

  6. #201
    Shadowlander silentb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sariina View Post
    Jeez man, give him a few days at least ;)
    Should have been today with the patch, not hard to change that stuff

  7. #202
    Ascendant bitnine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by silentb View Post
    Should have been today with the patch, not hard to change that stuff
    I would actually hope that they don't toss in changes that are "not hard" in a manner that circumvents a QA process.

  8. #203
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    Quote Originally Posted by silentb View Post
    Should have been today with the patch, not hard to change that stuff
    Except today's patch had probably passed QA before he even made the comment. If you shove something last minute in like that it would have to go back to QA and delay the patch. The next patch might already be in QA, so the fixes that are in it are probably closed . . . you might be able to sneak something small like this in, but depending on how they handle things like that they may not allow any changes beyond certain points in the process.

    That means not next patch, but the patch after that is probably a sure thing. If it's not in there by then, ask questions.

  9. #204
    RIFT Guide Writer Zyzyx's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by silentb View Post
    Should have been today with the patch, not hard to change that stuff
    Code:
    rogue energy regen value = 23
    change that to:

    Code:
    rogue energy regen value = 27
    ...and just call it a day. Don't even have to mess with tablets at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by Daglar View Post
    When time allows I'll be looking at the issue with the class guys.

  10. #205
    Champion of Telara Puandro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zyzyx View Post
    Code:
    rogue energy regen value = 23
    change that to:

    Code:
    rogue energy regen value = 27
    ...and just call it a day. Don't even have to mess with tablets at all.
    But but, that would make fervor useless, you know like it is for the other 3 callings.
    Gnarlwood - Belladonna - P50 Rogue
    Seastone - Puandro - P24 Mage
    Im here for the PvE, not the unbalanced subpar PvP.
    Just Waiting...

  11. #206
    Plane Walker TroubleMagnet's Avatar
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    As much as I'd like even this small fix to have gone in today, they really do need to put it through their QA process. We can hardly know what other changes might be in the same file(s) for other issues so getting just the ones that are ready in and verified is likely a non-trivial task.
    Dummy Foundry rocks. CQ blows. Energy is meh. MORE ROLE SLOTS! Burma shave.

  12. #207
    Rift Disciple barrysneaks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Valfador View Post
    Instead of removing fervor, simple solution is to just add a 13% energy consumption buff as an aura in every tree.
    Fixed that for you =P
    Rogue

  13. #208
    Plane Walker Enaki's Avatar
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    I seriously doubt we're going to get a much larger boost without some DPS re-balancing, or at least a large study of it on the Dev's part. That takes time which they most likely already have allocated to a different set of items.

    In the short term though there is one other option that while not solving all the issues would help a lot with 5 and 10 mans.
    • Fighter Soul X (most likely Warlord or Beastmaster) has a new X point ability talent called "Battle Efficiency" (or something less corny).
    Set it to the same value as Living Energy and put it low in the tree and then you have three classes that can boost energy regen and increase the likely hood that all classes have access to some form of Energy Regen in content that is meant for less than 20 players. It would also let you get Run Speed for 20 mans.

    You could do this as well for one of the Cleric souls, but I could see the QQ line forming up already.

    It doesn't solve the practicing builds on dummy issues. There are other options for that though (such as an ally buff dummy that you could join a public group with, parsing instances, etc...).

    This is definitely one of those time where I think we can get what we need, but with faster (and easier from a Dev's perspective) methods than how we are asking for it.
    Telarans on class balance: Rock is overpowered. Paper is fine. - Scissors

  14. #209
    Rift Disciple Scrumdiddly's Avatar
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    Giving every other class an energy regen aura for rogues would be the ultimate slap in the face.

    Though I agree it'd still be preferable to the current situation.
    Last edited by Scrumdiddly; 05-08-2012 at 12:13 PM.
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  15. #210
    Plane Walker Enaki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scrumdiddly View Post
    Giving every other class an energy regen aura for rogues would be the ultimate slap in the face.
    Why? Because it doesn't fix the problem 100% of the time? It may not be ideal, but if the Dev's aren't going to take on a full pass of energy/dps balancing then it solves our most realist vulnerabilities to our current energy setup, 5 man group zones and 10 man raids where you're not guaranteed to have a Bard or a Chloro.

    Like I said, it's not perfect. But it's better to have an imperfect solution that covers more situations than the current situation as opposed to no solution because the dev's don't have time for what the players are asking for and the players reject anything else.

    What is that they say "Don't let perfect be the enemy of good"?

    Update: Looks like you updated yours while I was responding, but I think we're all on thee same page.
    Last edited by Enaki; 05-08-2012 at 12:19 PM.
    Telarans on class balance: Rock is overpowered. Paper is fine. - Scissors

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