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Thread: The MM utility myth

  1. #16
    Koe
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    Quote Originally Posted by Petgroup View Post
    Which shouldn't warrant the subpar dps they deal because of it. It would be one thing if it was a 5-10% hit, it isn't. Well, thanks to Gyle it isn't............
    Interrupt alone, no.

    But;

    Interrupt
    Spammable Purge
    Ranged
    "Decent" AoE
    "Decent" ST
    Awareness
    Knockback(had some niche uses in HK trash, who knows about ID?)
    Root(has had no real PvE use, but who knows about ID?)
    etc

    all combined into one spec means that it should not put out competitive DPS compared to mages, or any melee spec we have.

    At all.

    As it is now, Ranger should be the ST spec and MM should be the utility/go-to spec for ranged.

    Although, Ranger being pet-based automatically excludes it from some fights either due to the pet dieing, or the pets AI.

    So, that leaves Rogue ranged-DPS in a poor place compared to mages and clerics.

    Buffing MM, keeping everything it has now, is not the right answer.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Koe View Post
    Interrupt alone, no.

    But;

    Interrupt
    Spammable Purge
    Ranged
    "Decent" AoE
    "Decent" ST
    Awareness
    Knockback(had some niche uses in HK trash, who knows about ID?)
    Root(has had no real PvE use, but who knows about ID?)
    etc

    all combined into one spec means that it should not put out competitive DPS compared to mages, or any melee spec we have.

    At all.

    As it is now, Ranger should be the ST spec and MM should be the utility/go-to spec for ranged.

    Although, Ranger being pet-based automatically excludes it from some fights either due to the pet dieing, or the pets AI.

    So, that leaves Rogue ranged-DPS in a poor place compared to mages and clerics.

    Buffing MM, keeping everything it has now, is not the right answer.
    So, you're saying there is no right answer for rogue ranged DPS?
    The utility is a myth.
    Ranged Interrupt? Any mage can have it for two points.
    Spammable purge has no PvE use.
    Knockback and root? Other specs/callings have those or stuns and slows without being 'utility'.
    Awareness is a function of the person behind the keyboard, not the spec.

    When I say competitive, I mean not freaking awful, right in there with cleric ranged DPS. The melee specs, warriors and mages will still be ahead.

    Are you concerned it's too easy to use and you won't be able to pwn scrubs hard anymore?
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  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by TroubleMagnet View Post
    So, you're saying there is no right answer for rogue ranged DPS?
    The utility is a myth.
    Ranged Interrupt? Any mage can have it for two points.
    Spammable purge has no PvE use.
    Knockback and root? Other specs/callings have those or stuns and slows without being 'utility'.
    Awareness is a function of the person behind the keyboard, not the spec.

    When I say competitive, I mean not freaking awful, right in there with cleric ranged DPS. The melee specs, warriors and mages will still be ahead.

    Are you concerned it's too easy to use and you won't be able to pwn scrubs hard anymore?
    No, you can remove utility and/or nerf it, or spread it across different specs.

    -Mage one isn't off GCD, and requires 2 points in a spec that otherwise offers nothing for most/all of their DPS specs.
    -Purge does have a use, though, and the fact it has no CD can alleviate emergencies in times of need(aka Sicaron).
    -What other specs have a knockback, root, ranged off-GCD interrupt, purge, "decent" AoE, and "decent ST", among other things? You DON'T just look at the knockback/root, it's the whole picture.
    -Awareness certainly is tied to spec. BS certainly takes more awareness than MM.

    I'm talking about PvE only.


    Food for thought: If MM did as much DPS as any of our other specs(NB, post-1.8RNG, BD, or BS) there would be literally no reason to use those specs, and it would actually be frowned upon by placing a handicap on yourself.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Koe View Post
    No, you can remove utility and/or nerf it, or spread it across different specs.

    -Mage one isn't off GCD, and requires 2 points in a spec that otherwise offers nothing for most/all of their DPS specs.
    -Purge does have a use, though, and the fact it has no CD can alleviate emergencies in times of need(aka Sicaron).
    -What other specs have a knockback, root, ranged off-GCD interrupt, purge, "decent" AoE, and "decent ST", among other things? You DON'T just look at the knockback/root, it's the whole picture.
    -Awareness certainly is tied to spec. BS certainly takes more awareness than MM.

    I'm talking about PvE only.


    Food for thought: If MM did as much DPS as any of our other specs(NB, post-1.8RNG, BD, or BS) there would be literally no reason to use those specs, and it would actually be frowned upon by placing a handicap on yourself.
    Please, the fact that there is no cd on eradicate has nothing to do with it's usefulness for sicaron. If you are using it because it doesnt have a cd, that means you likely have at least two dead members (including soon to be yourself) and someone else already ****ed up and with you dead, it's probably a wipe anyway and the no cd purge is useless. That is hardly justification for the poor dps.

    As for the rest, a full inquisitor with some points in warden has a knock back, purge, excellent ST and excellent aoe. It lacks an interrupt but otherwise has almost all the other utility features, including some heals in a pinch and great self heals from vex. Last I saw, equally geared clerics vs rogues, inquisitor does more dps than mm.
    Last edited by Metallica11; 04-05-2012 at 03:54 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Koe View Post
    No, you can remove utility and/or nerf it, or spread it across different specs.

    -Mage one isn't off GCD, and requires 2 points in a spec that otherwise offers nothing for most/all of their DPS specs.
    -Purge does have a use, though, and the fact it has no CD can alleviate emergencies in times of need(aka Sicaron).
    -What other specs have a knockback, root, ranged off-GCD interrupt, purge, "decent" AoE, and "decent ST", among other things? You DON'T just look at the knockback/root, it's the whole picture.
    -Awareness certainly is tied to spec. BS certainly takes more awareness than MM.

    I'm talking about PvE only.


    Food for thought: If MM did as much DPS as any of our other specs(NB, post-1.8RNG, BD, or BS) there would be literally no reason to use those specs, and it would actually be frowned upon by placing a handicap on yourself.
    Speaking PvE only, knockbacks have extremely limited use, if not OznLY on trash or some boss adds. Root has almost no use in PvE raiding.

    No cd on purge does not have a big advantage in PvE as no developer would force it to be needed only allowing for 1 calling to solo handle that job. So no.

    Ranged interrupt and silence off GCD is a big one though. Mobility is technically big, but ultimately it's not because otherwise youd have mages and ranged cleric dps dying all the time if the mobility was in fact "needed".

    So it's mostly all fluff in raids, at the cost of significant dps loss. That's unnecessary.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Metallica11 View Post
    Please, the fact that there is no cd on eradicate has nothing to do with it's usefulness for sicaron. If you are using it because it doesnt have a cd, that means you likely have at least two dead members (including soon to be yourself) and someone else already ****ed up and with you dead, it's probably a wipe anyway and the no cd purge is useless. That is hardly justification for the poor dps.

    As for the rest, a full inquisitor with some points in warden has a knock back, purge, excellent ST and excellent aoe. It lacks an interrupt but otherwise has almost all the other utility features, including some heals in a pinch and great self heals from vex. Last I saw, equally geared clerics vs rogues, inquisitor does more dps than mm.
    Did I not say for emergency purposes?


    -With the points in warden, how is the ST? The AoE is already lower than MM, in pure INQ. Also don't need to go up Warden for a KB.
    -Inquisitor does do more, but it has less AoE and less/different utility(being that it is based on casts, and the only "offensive" utility it offers is AoE fear, knockback, and purge. Nysry's Rebuke[stun] if 51. It has "defensive" utility in the CC-ward).

    MM:

    -Less ST
    -More AoE
    -Off GCD ranged interrupt
    -More mobile
    -Root(no use as of yet)
    -CC/mechanic immunity (Strafe)


    INQ:
    -Raid debuff
    -CC-Ward
    -Higher ST
    -Less AoE
    -AoE PBAoE Fear
    -ST Fear


    So, yeah. Seems pretty fair.
    Last edited by Koe; 04-05-2012 at 04:07 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DTM300 View Post

    Ranged interrupt and silence off GCD is a big one though. Mobility is technically big, but ultimately it's not because otherwise youd have mages and ranged cleric dps dying all the time if the mobility was in fact "needed".

    So it's mostly all fluff in raids, at the cost of significant dps loss. That's unnecessary.
    Again, are you looking at HK now, or HK pre-nerfs?


    What I'm saying is, it's "fluff" for the current raid, but that does not mean it will always be fluff. To avoid future problems, you either need to move/nerf the "fluff" in order to increase the DPS. We already ran into the problem when MM was top; Why use other specs?

    Ranged should "equal" ranged(not in a purely ST standpoint), and ranged should be below melee.

    Until mechanics of fights target ranged, and give a disadvantage to ranged as much as melee, they should do less. Now, this would be on a "dummy" parse, like Sicaron. On fights where you have disconnects to melee, the difference should not be so significant so as the melee/range parse about evenly.
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    Plane Walker TroubleMagnet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Koe View Post
    Again, are you looking at HK now, or HK pre-nerfs?


    What I'm saying is, it's "fluff" for the current raid, but that does not mean it will always be fluff. To avoid future problems, you either need to move/nerf the "fluff" in order to increase the DPS. We already ran into the problem when MM was top; Why use other specs?

    Ranged should "equal" ranged(not in a purely ST standpoint), and ranged should be below melee.

    Until mechanics of fights target ranged, and give a disadvantage to ranged as much as melee, they should do less. Now, this would be on a "dummy" parse, like Sicaron. On fights where you have disconnects to melee, the difference should not be so significant so as the melee/range parse about evenly.
    I'm NOT asking it to be top DPS, or equal to our top DPS. It should be behind some, just not as much as it is now. When you compare it to other ranged specs, it's severely lacking, like behond AoE spec ST kind of bad. It's only going to get worse as gear improves too since the problem is it scales poorly.
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    Quote Originally Posted by TroubleMagnet View Post
    I'm NOT asking it to be top DPS, or equal to our top DPS. It should be behind some, just not as much as it is now.
    I can agree with this.

    Quote Originally Posted by TroubleMagnet
    When you compare it to other ranged specs, it's severely lacking, like behond AoE spec ST kind of bad. It's only going to get worse as gear improves too since the problem is it scales poorly.
    It should be lacking to say, Mage PyroLock, or Ranger. For what Ranger offers, it should be above MM.

    Should be slightly above inquisitor, since they effectively offer the same thing. As it is now, you are virtually trading AoE for ST between the two(Just talking about those 2 souls; Not any utility they get from offsouls).

    Reason for being above inquisitor, rather than equal, solely has to do with -icar specs. Something really, really, needs to change in -icar. It's holding cleric back from being able to do competitive DPS.
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    Is inquisitor really worse aoe dps? I mean soul drain + fanaticism is like the best thing, filling in with CoO and SD again in a few seconds - that honestly is worse than spamming fanout and lightning fury?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Metallica11 View Post
    Is inquisitor really worse aoe dps? I mean soul drain + fanaticism is like the best thing, filling in with CoO and SD again in a few seconds - that honestly is worse than spamming fanout and lightning fury?
    Soul Drain is actually pretty weak AoE on anything more than 5 targets, or so. Especially when you get 8-9 targets.
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  12. #27
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    Utility is not about how big of a benefit a skill is or the need of in in 100% of the fights.. MM's utility is about being able to perform EVERY single DPS task in a fight at the same time and in the same build that provides good dps. Should it be higher dps? did it suffer some stupid nerfs? double yes.

    In my opinion, MM's utility is only second to Sab back when I was clearing T2's in march 2011 and that's a LOT. MM utility is NOT a myth.

    Quote Originally Posted by Metallica11 View Post
    Please, the fact that there is no cd on eradicate has nothing to do with it's usefulness for sicaron. If you are using it because it doesnt have a cd, that means you likely have at least two dead members (including soon to be yourself) and someone else already ****ed up and with you dead, it's probably a wipe anyway and the no cd purge is useless. That is hardly justification for the poor dps.

    As for the rest, a full inquisitor with some points in warden has a knock back, purge, excellent ST and excellent aoe. It lacks an interrupt but otherwise has almost all the other utility features, including some heals in a pinch and great self heals from vex. Last I saw, equally geared clerics vs rogues, inquisitor does more dps than mm.
    #1 On Sic: when was a Raid wipe better than 1 dead Rogue?
    #2 On inq: So you have 2 Aoe knock backs + a single Snare + a slow + aoe Slow/blink/breakfree + 35meters interrupt + healing debuff + and Aoe AND Single target Armor debuff + 3 momevent speed increases and a retreat for survival? You are just saying is that , If you tweak ur spek you can get half our utility while doing more damage? More damage is what everyone here agrees MM needs. lad to have u on board with our thoughts.

    And yeah before some people trash most of those skills due to being able to be performed by others or situational or not needed in most fights... I'll say Yes MM's utility is having every tool "just in case" w/o having to put "some points into..." The normal Dps spec of MM does ALL that.

    The bottom line is, the first day I step into ID, I'll do it AFTER I do /Role 3 ? /loadequip 1. Whant to guess what that macro does? :P (hint: its not BS)

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    MM being behind other specs by 500-900 DPS on ST is justified because of the toys MM gets, but I would not agree on the mobility. Sure, when using hasted there's a speed buff active all the time, but that's only useful on RKM and on akylios for breaths. Any half-assed mutant spec with the odd 20-something points in RS has better mobility vue to the ability of ignoring some movement mechanics and slows. OTD isn't spammable, you know.

    In addition to Zyzyx's changes, I'd also suggest:
    Knock Eradicate down to a 5-sec CD and only allow to remove one beneficial buff (it's effectively 10 seconds on the boss where it matters anyways).
    Move Silver Tip Munitions to a self-buff instead of stacking on the target.
    Delete Repelling Shot and replace with a Head Shot -like finisher, current imp. RS would give the same bonus as Bestial Fury. WIll not stack with Head Shot.
    Last edited by Rounded; 04-05-2012 at 11:12 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rounded View Post
    MM being behind other specs by 500-900 DPS on ST is justified because of the toys MM gets
    No Soul is ever justified to be that far behind, 500 ST would be about the top end i would expect not the bottom end.

  15. #30
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    So it looks like MM is going to be behind sab in ST DPS? W T F ? ? ?
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