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Thread: Why are rogues the only class that are required to use tablets in our top DPS spec?

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    RIFT Guide Writer Zyzyx's Avatar
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    Default Why are rogues the only class that are required to use tablets in our top DPS spec?

    Warriors got energy buff.

    We want one too. The rogue energy regeneration rate severly limits our options when picking a role/soul both in and out of raids.

    "Second we are working hard to get another fix in for Energy starvation on the Warriors. The goal here is for this to impact players who are not popping Tablets like candy more and create less of a need for these consumables." - dev

    EDIT: Some relevant posts.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyzyx View Post
    Qan suggested we parse with several bards in party. With multiple bards timing their verse of joys correctly we were able to simulate the effect of a potential rogue energy regeneration buff. Here are some ACT screens:

    http://imgur.com/a/wSrne
    http://imgur.com/a/TOlEi

    These parses were done with whetstones and poisonous coating. The bard and archon ran their normal rotations and the 5-6 other bards in party made sure verse of joy was constantly up.

    Today before raid I was able to run tests in a more realistic situation and my dps numbers did not change significantly. I was at about 3800 on ranger and around 4000 on assasin/riftstalker. I'll work on getting you screens of those if you'd like. I parsed with the same bard and archon from yesterday and ran with a tablet to simulate a typical raid environment.

    My conclusion is that our dps will not change drastically from any potential energy regeneration increase. The benefits of massively improving rogue quality of life as well as balance the rogue calling with the warrior calling's power regeneration make the decision of increasing rogue energy regeneration seem like a no brainer to me. Currently rogues REQUIRE the use of tablets to be viable use our top dps specs (nb/(sin/rs)/ranger) this leads to an extra burden of "going through tablets like candy" for rogues to raid. Using them in dungeons is a waste so, at least for me, I am between 10-25% lower than other callings in single target dps on boss encounters in dungeons without a chloro in my group because the other callings do not have this problem.
    Quote Originally Posted by Zyzyx View Post
    something like:

    ((27 x 5 = 135) + (17x1 = 17)) / 6 seconds = 25.3333 energy per second

    This is using 1cp generators and finishers at 5 cps with fervor.

    ((27 x 3 = 81) + (35x 1 = 35) + (17x1 = 17)) / 5 seconds = 26.6 energy per second
    This is using three 1 cp generators and one 2 cp generator.

    ((27x1 = 27) + (35x2 = 70) + (17x1=17)) / 4 seconds = 28.5 energy per second

    This is using two 2 cp generators and one 1 cp generator ,but is not going to happen frequently due to cds.

    Expose weakness 18 energy / 20 seconds(CD) = .9 energy per second for this ability alone.
    18 energy / 60 seconds = .3 energy per second
    Assuming you are in sin/rs using it only when keeping up anihilate.

    Those two red numbers are what we see most commonly getting around 26.9 energy per second or 27. HTH
    Note: Even with fervor and a tablet 24 energy regen is below our lowest possible energy consuming rotation.
    ((30 x 3 = 90) + (40x 1 = 40) + (20x1 = 20)) / 5 seconds = 30 energy per second
    Expose Weakness 20 energy / 20 seconds = 1 energy per second

    FWIW I think something like this is how the 32 energy per second for rogues getting comparable energy regen to warrior's power regen number was achieved.

    Quote Originally Posted by Daglar View Post
    While there is a lot of passion out there about modifying other aspects of energy regen the one that I'm going to approve and push through for now is as follows:

    Rogue energy regen will be changed from 23 per second to 24 per second.
    Tablets will have energy regeneration removed from them.
    This gives you the effective energy regen of a character using a tablet - for free and all the time.

    We will not be addressing concerns regarding fervor or other energy regen buffs at this moment in time.

    Daglar
    Lead Game Designer: Rift
    Last edited by Zyzyx; 05-07-2012 at 01:34 PM.

    Quote Originally Posted by Daglar View Post
    When time allows I'll be looking at the issue with the class guys.

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    If they launched T3 PA then we would have a free tablet every 30 minutes. Not that it really fixes the disparity but I don't see why the rogue population isn't revolting over the T3 delay due to top raiders being whiny brats that don't want to have make the choice between raiding and PA points.

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    Rift Chaser Mellik's Avatar
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    I agree that our energy starvation issue needs some addressing. If that solution is new abilities or a buff to our regen rate I'm cool with it. As long as something is done.

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    Ascendant bitnine's Avatar
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    While I agree, I get a little bit of an ominous feeling that it isn't going to be changed anytime soon given this little sneak peak from 1.8.

    Seriously though, it is indeed a real PITA. Both in how starved BS is, as well as even just the impact on questiing/soloing.

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    Ascendant batou079's Avatar
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    Just food for thought, not trolling at all. but keep in mind with full raid buffs rogues pull ahead of other dps even with energy starvation.
    http://forums.riftgame.com/rift-gene...ts-parses.html

    Mind you it is indeed only Bloodstalker... but if energy no longer limits rogue dps, i am curious just how much higher they could get!

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    Sword of Telara Zahne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by batou079 View Post
    Just food for thought, not trolling at all. but keep in mind with full raid buffs rogues pull ahead of other dps even with energy starvation.

    He know's that. He just wants to be OP.
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    Ascendant JimboTCB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by batou079 View Post
    Mind you it is indeed only Bloodstalker... but if energy no longer limits rogue dps, i am curious just how much higher they could get!
    NB still starves occasionally with only Fervor up, and that doesn't even have the excuse of using 3cp finishers. Hell, just about everything starves without at least *some* sort of energy reduction, and when virtually all of your specs are unplayable to a greater or lesser degree without a raid buff, it's a broken mechanic.

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    RIFT Guide Writer Sebb's Avatar
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    It makes sense. Energy management doesn't really belong in this game given every major ability has a cool down.

    Energy was originally there to keep you from spamming mega damage attacks.
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    Ascendant batou079's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JimboTCB View Post
    NB still starves occasionally with only Fervor up, and that doesn't even have the excuse of using 3cp finishers. Hell, just about everything starves without at least *some* sort of energy reduction, and when virtually all of your specs are unplayable to a greater or lesser degree without a raid buff, it's a broken mechanic.
    I feel you. Warriors were in the same boat. Difference being... when they were forced to use tablets (plus fervor) their DPS was still limited because they would no longer be energy starved with the crutch from tablets. Not being energy starved at that point, warrior dps was still limited. So lifting the energy regen disability did not directly affect their DPS ceiling. There was no concern with "OP" dps, heck their energy regen on PTS was nerfed because they had more regen then they could even use, there was no "need" to have such high regen...

    For rogues, the top dps specc is energy starved even WITH tablet and fervor. This means the DPS ceiling is only capped by the regen disability. Therefore, removing the energy limit means the DPS ceiling will increase which could end up pushing things way out of proportion. My point was, removing the energy cap may result in a dps nerf to bring that DPS ceiling back in line with other classes... whether they are pre-emptive with this, or are reactive and adjust things after the fact... it could happen is all im sayin'. I love my rogue, but i am prepared for something like this to happen if energy regen is increased.

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    This is an outrage!

    Or just look at my sig and take a wild guess who stated that. Equality, nah.

    How much more could you squeeze out of bs? Limiter is GCD. Not sure it not being energy starved would raise dps by any noticable amount. You're already popping finishers as soon as exposed is off.
    The first issue I would like feedback on is the Power Regeneration. I have tweaked it to a point but I need feedback on it from actual players (You guys) in a real world environment to fine tune it. The value is not final and will likely need to be changed. The goal is to minimize the use and need for Tablets and make players who do not use them more viable without completely removing the use of the Tablets in game

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    Quote Originally Posted by batou079 View Post
    I feel you. Warriors were in the same boat. Difference being... when they were forced to use tablets (plus fervor) their DPS was still limited because they would no longer be energy starved with the crutch from tablets. Not being energy starved at that point, warrior dps was still limited. So lifting the energy regen disability did not directly affect their DPS ceiling. There was no concern with "OP" dps, heck their energy regen on PTS was nerfed because they had more regen then they could even use, there was no "need" to have such high regen...

    For rogues, the top dps specc is energy starved even WITH tablet and fervor. This means the DPS ceiling is only capped by the regen disability. Therefore, removing the energy limit means the DPS ceiling will increase which could end up pushing things way out of proportion. My point was, removing the energy cap may result in a dps nerf to bring that DPS ceiling back in line with other classes... whether they are pre-emptive with this, or are reactive and adjust things after the fact... it could happen is all im sayin'. I love my rogue, but i am prepared for something like this to happen if energy regen is increased.
    The dps ceiling is capped by regen? What additional moves would you use in BS if you weren't energy starved? That are a dps gain. Please let me know as I'm curious to what I'm not using that could improve my dps.
    The first issue I would like feedback on is the Power Regeneration. I have tweaked it to a point but I need feedback on it from actual players (You guys) in a real world environment to fine tune it. The value is not final and will likely need to be changed. The goal is to minimize the use and need for Tablets and make players who do not use them more viable without completely removing the use of the Tablets in game

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    Ascendant Zazen's Avatar
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    Even if a build doesn't have energy problems you should still be using a tablet when you raid.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zazen View Post
    Even if a build doesn't have energy problems you should still be using a tablet when you raid.
    Give no energy problems: why?
    The first issue I would like feedback on is the Power Regeneration. I have tweaked it to a point but I need feedback on it from actual players (You guys) in a real world environment to fine tune it. The value is not final and will likely need to be changed. The goal is to minimize the use and need for Tablets and make players who do not use them more viable without completely removing the use of the Tablets in game

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    RIFT Guide Writer Gyle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DTM300 View Post
    Give no energy problems: why?
    Str bonus bro.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DTM300 View Post
    Give no energy problems: why?
    17 Str, unique buff.

    The problem with totally removing energy starvation is that at that point, you might as well no longer HAVE a resource mechanic. As it is, I think the problem lies on the other side of the spectrum. As a healing cleric, mana is at a premium. For mages, mana is a joke, and charge management is more of an issue. For warriors, power is no problem under most circumstances.

    If you never have to worry about managing your energy, why even have it in the first place?
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