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Thread: The Riftstalker 31 point.

  1. #46
    Plane Walker Knightcrawler's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firieth View Post
    Actually I did have my mind made up before reading this thread, even before this thread had been thought of. Due to the fact that I have been in situations where I wished I had sergeants orders too. But I thought about it and how it would effect the Warrior community and what real benefits it gives Rogues.

    I am not the best at breaking down my thought processes and explaining them on paper unfortunately. But here I go.

    First, When is Sergeants Orders viable.

    a) Not viable in boss fights because most boss's and adds are immune.
    b) Generally not viable or has little impact during 20 man raids due to the fact that there is often an off-tank. There is one place where Sergeants Order's is convenient that I have seen, ROS by warmaster.

    *note* I am only 5 out of 11 in HK so I don't really know what upstairs is like sadly.

    So then we are mostly talking about experts, master modes or 10 mans.

    1) We can close a gap of about 60 meters in 2 GDC's without taking or taking little damage. Our cooldowns are perfect to reduce damage if we need this distance and more damage reduction. (I often LOS beyond the group I just agro'd, not always back to a location where DPS and healers are)
    2) You can generally LOS.
    3) In experts, Master Modes or 10 Mans TTT builds are far superior and therefore we do have a silence for mana mobs.
    4) Planar Attraction.
    4a) in the case of to many ranged mobs, Planar attraction placement is key and will mostly get the group of ranged close enough for AOE purposes by selectively grouping close enough to other groups of ranged.

    How does giving Rogues a Sergeants Orders variation negatively impact Warriors and Clerics?

    It really comes down to balance in game play mechanics. The mechanic here we are talking about is really a gap closer. Trion has two way's of accomplishing this. Pull or Teleport.

    Clerics and Warriors have the pull while Rogues have the Teleport.

    It would be unfair to give Rogues both.
    Both clerics and warriors can spec to have multipule pulls and a charge, or mulipe charges and a pull.
    --

    Pulls are highly useful in ALL content, refer to the cabalist reference in the OP. Pulls can be used as a form of interrupt on the Terror Bombardment mobs in HK. Mobs that cannot be silenced can usually be pulled. When the pull fails to 'pull' it just acts as a tuant. In terms of Viability, are guilds going to chose a tank who can just run in and group all the mobs in 2 seconds or a tank that has to creatively pull the mobs 60+m in any direction to group them. When running 2 tanks on dangerous trash packs, you can have 1 tank pull while another one grips a dangerous mob out to either be focused or squirreled, why shouldn't rogues get that? While I'm on that subject, you used to be able to 'sap' a mob, and pull it out of the pack without aggroing the rest, Idk if that still works but its merely another of the unlimited uses.

    *PvP*
    It would make rogues a bit more viable of pvp tanks, we cant purge/debuff/pull people off ledges/spotters order/mana drain while pvp tanking/full heal 2x/etc. We can't even have the option to Guard healers (warrior pvp PA skill). At least we could pull people of ledges lol.
    Not that pvp tanking even matters. Just more examples.

    -----

    How will this hurt other tanks?
    How will this make us OP?
    The answers are it doesn't, and it won't, it only makes us more viable, more useful, and gives us more entertainment, control, and quality of life.
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  2. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Knightcrawler View Post
    Both clerics and warriors can spec to have multipule pulls and a charge, or mulipe charges and a pull.
    It is not optimal for a warrior tank to spec into a charge spec. The current Warrior blink spec looses alot of mitigation otherwise they are not spec'ing for charge.

    Clerics do have an option of charge on what a 15 second cooldown. We have 5 charges and memory capture.

    Quote Originally Posted by Knightcrawler View Post
    When the pull fails to 'pull' it just acts as a tuant. In terms of Viability, are guilds going to chose a tank who can just run in and group all the mobs in 2 seconds or a tank that has to creatively pull the mobs 60+m in any direction to group them.
    Yes good examples but our counter is our mobility although this does cause havoc with mele at times and likewise as you point out, the setup of creative pulls is sometimes a pain. I have had fail pulls because our guild is not familiar with rogue style tanking, so your point is well taken. One time my Raid leader said to me, We don't blink to mobs when tanking. LOL I still have a lot of training to do with this guild.

    Quote Originally Posted by Knightcrawler View Post
    The answers are it doesn't, and it won't, it only makes us more viable, more useful, and gives us more entertainment, control, and quality of life.
    But this is where I just disagree. It doesn't make us more viable. A pull doesn't get a tank chosen as the tank. It doesn't give us more options, it takes away from our options and dumbs down our class making our shifts nothing more than a combat buff (that is another grievance I have too!).

    And really we are just bypassing intended CC mechanics due to the over-simplification of tank healing to begin with.

    I am surprised I am the only one that brought up the mele complications when we are forced to shift to a ranged target where-by it will often put mele in cleavage danger. Now, as dumb as this may sound, maybe the 31 point ability could be "roots mobs in x range when shifting away from mobs for x time" Thus giving mele the time to adjust position.
    Last edited by Firieth; 03-28-2012 at 06:26 PM.

  3. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kedon View Post
    An idea for a "Pull" ability which wouldn't just be a copy-paste of Rift Summon.

    Shadow's Embrace
    Plane Shifts a single hostile or friendly target to your Memory Capture circle. 20 meter range. 45 second cooldown (reduced with Shadow Mastery).

    Okay I know this is a 31 point and Memory Capture is 32, heh. But the idea is a combination of both raid utility and a Pull depending on how you use it. Set your capture at your feet to teleport hostiles to you. Or, with some forward planning with the Memory Capture, to teleport allies out of danger.

    This would be dope, but it will never happen.
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  4. #49
    Plane Walker Knightcrawler's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firieth View Post
    But this is where I just disagree. It doesn't make us more viable. A pull doesn't get a tank chosen as the tank. It doesn't give us more options, it takes away from our options and dumbs down our class making our shifts nothing more than a combat buff (that is another grievance I have too!).

    And really we are just bypassing intended CC mechanics due to the over-simplification of tank healing to begin with.
    How many guilds currently clear HK with a rogue always tanking? I'm sure you could count them on 1 hand, pretty sure you wouldn't even need 1 hand. This is PARTLY due to the fact that warriors are easier to heal and have more mitigation. What people don't think about is this:

    Warrior tanks make the entire instance go faster, keep your raid safer, and have complete control of the situation. -- Even if rogues took the same damage they do now, but could make the instance go faster, keep the raid safer, and have complete control over the situation, EVERY GUILD would run a rogue tank. Giving us a pull Merely puts us on semi even ground, we would still mitigate way less, have less utility etc..
    ---
    I just don't even see how you can argue that Having a Pull gives us LESS options and makes us LESS viable, this train of thought doesn't make sense to me. When you have 'xyz' options and you add 'w' options you now have 'wxyz' - which isn't less. 97% of a boss fight you use your shifts as a combat buff, which is exactly what you dont want right? Well tell me, when 1 add comes out of no where and you are already tanking some adds, why would you teleport over to this new add, endangering every melee. Wouldn't you just taunt said add? Well, what happens when that add doesnt make it into your range within the 3 second taunt window? Now you either have to teleport over to it, cleaving the melee, or ask a warrior friend to pull it in.

    In no way would a pull dumb down our class. Our class is so bloody dumbed down as it is.. it gives us more options, more things to think about, more viability, more control. When the biggest thing we ever have to think about is: 'Where on earth should I LoS this pack' something is wrong.
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  5. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Knightcrawler View Post
    How many guilds currently clear HK with a rogue always tanking? I'm sure you could count them on 1 hand, pretty sure you wouldn't even need 1 hand. This is PARTLY due to the fact that warriors are easier to heal and have more mitigation. What people don't think about is this:

    Warrior tanks make the entire instance go faster, keep your raid safer, and have complete control of the situation. -- Even if rogues took the same damage they do now, but could make the instance go faster, keep the raid safer, and have complete control over the situation, EVERY GUILD would run a rogue tank. Giving us a pull Merely puts us on semi even ground, we would still mitigate way less, have less utility etc..
    Incoming anecdotal evidence, but I really don't feel that the rogue/warrior gap is as big as people make it out to be unless you're throwing yourself at content that you're not really prepared for.

    My guild clears HK every week, either on Wednesday or on Thursday if we're going for specific cheevos to work on Conqueror for folks (Zilas Umbral RNG can bite me, three umbrals on every crystal except the last one and then he hits enrage, FML). I am a Riftstalker, and I am tanking for the entire run except for Sicaron where I'm part of our purge squad. On Murdantix and King/Prince, being able to solo interrupts with TtT's Weapon Barrage allows the DPS to focus on DPS, which helps knock things down faster. On King/Prince, being able to warp straight back during Cursed Blows and then Flashback right back to my original spot comes in handy -- I never get the debuff from CB, and I don't have to do anything funky with kiting him around to avoid getting it -- just a straight line in and out which makes our raid members' lives much easier.

    We don't really have LESS utility, just DIFFERENT utility. Constantly pulsing 360-degree AoE threat the entire time goes a long way towards snagging loose mobs, and on the rare occasion that it's a caster that can't be silenced or reliably LoS'd, we just have our warrior pull and be done with it. Most of the time though, it's enough to drop my memory capture, warp over to the caster and punch it a bit to get threat, then flashback to LoS it in. Mobility does mean something, you just have to plan around it and get creative. On Akylios, if our warrior tank gets a Suffocating Orb and he has to be somewhere alone (to pick up Akylios, mostly), he has to have a Covenant used on him to survive and stay safe for the pickup. If I get an orb on me when picking up Jornaru or a lasher, I can just scatter through it and save the healer cooldowns for when we really need them.

    Again, not less utility, just different utility.

    That said, it is true that gaining an ability, even something like a yank, doesn't give us fewer options or less utility. I would just rather it be something more unique than a copy of an existing warrior ability.
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  6. #51
    Plane Walker TroubleMagnet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Isila View Post
    Incoming anecdotal evidence, but I really don't feel that the rogue/warrior gap is as big as people make it out to be unless you're throwing yourself at content that you're not really prepared for.

    *snip*

    We don't really have LESS utility, just DIFFERENT utility. Constantly pulsing 360-degree AoE threat the entire time goes a long way towards snagging loose mobs, and on the rare occasion that it's a caster that can't be silenced or reliably LoS'd, we just have our warrior pull and be done with it. Most of the time though, it's enough to drop my memory capture, warp over to the caster and punch it a bit to get threat, then flashback to LoS it in. Mobility does mean something, you just have to plan around it and get creative. On Akylios, if our warrior tank gets a Suffocating Orb and he has to be somewhere alone (to pick up Akylios, mostly), he has to have a Covenant used on him to survive and stay safe for the pickup. If I get an orb on me when picking up Jornaru or a lasher, I can just scatter through it and save the healer cooldowns for when we really need them.

    Again, not less utility, just different utility.

    That said, it is true that gaining an ability, even something like a yank, doesn't give us fewer options or less utility. I would just rather it be something more unique than a copy of an existing warrior ability.
    You're not noticing the gap between rogue/warrior tanking because you're deep into farm mode with the current content. Once we get into ID I trust we'll start noticing the difference again, just like when HK first opened.

    So, you pretty much agree that the warriors are better for caster mobs since you say you just use a warrior for that, go it. Kiting is really the only time our ports come in at all handy as a tank, thing is I haven't see our warrior or even cleric tanks ever have a problem with this, ever. Planar vortex AoE threat is pretty good, assuming you can actually use your ports to keep it up. I'd say cleric AoE threat is better, and warriors can easily get two AoE taunts and have much higher AoE threat, assuming that ever matters

    You keep saying you want out utility to be equal but different, but we're missing one big tool both the other tanks have. We've got a craptacular 31 point talent. I don't see why we shouldn't fix both at the same time. You also don't offer any good suggestion on what else to do with the talent and seem fine with it being bad.
    Last edited by TroubleMagnet; 03-29-2012 at 08:07 AM.
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  7. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by ShazzamCrucia View Post
    *snip*
    called Planar Gate that when active causes all mobs within melee range to be brought with us when we plane shift. This ability can be toggled on or off like Planar Reversal. Maybe only useable in guardian phase?
    Overpowered. Oh the trolling in PVP if this ability existed!!! This one is just too much imo.
    So, don't have it work in PvP. I don't see the problem in PvE since they already have no problem making a ton of mobs immune these types of abilities if they don't want them moved.

    Quote Originally Posted by ShazzamCrucia View Post
    Personally I want PS replaced with something that consumes combo points, preferably an AoE-type finisher with some minor utiliity snagged on. Nothing too drastic, just something to spice up the rotation.

    Yah, I just haven't had any good ideas for an AoE finisher that isn't just a bump in AoE threat. I guess it could apply a debuff to everything it hits but the debuff stacking/overwriting is already a mess and the warriors would cry it we got something unique.
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    A new Finisher would be nice, being reduced down to just the one tanking Finisher has made the rotation feel painfully dull. Well, okay, I use Annihilate anyway just because it's there and there's no reason not to.

    As you said it's tricky trying to come up with something though:

    - We don't really need any more AoE threat to do our job fine.
    - I can't see them adding a unique debuff for us to use for fear of complains that Riftstalkers are now "Needed" as a result.
    - Going by the removal of False Blade and making Rift Guard passive defensive Finishers seem like a no-no.


    I don't know... maybe a Finisher on a long cooldown that lets all Plane Shifts be used without cooldown for x seconds? All I can think of.
    Last edited by Kedon; 03-29-2012 at 08:31 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TroubleMagnet View Post
    You keep saying you want out utility to be equal but different, but we're missing one big tool both the other tanks have. We've got a craptacular 31 point talent. I don't see why we shouldn't fix both at the same time. You also don't offer any good suggestion on what else to do with the talent and seem fine with it being bad.
    I submit that you have most likely not read my other posts in this thread, then. I have stated several times that Planar Switch, as it is now, serves no useful function as it is still geared towards the old style of RS tanking. I have also offered both a suggestion on how it can achieve a similar effect to pulls but still be something unique for Riftstalkers, and brainstorming on someone else's similar idea that used different mechanics to achieve effectively the same thing.

    I also stress in one of the posts here that it's important to use what works for your raid. Our raid has used a Riftstalker all throughout HK, including when we were progressing on the final few fights and pre-nerf Akylios. It is true that when HK was first released, Riftstalkers had major issues -- that was before the complete overhaul on how the soul works and the addition of Deflect. When ID releases, we get even better with the flat 5% mitigation being added to everything.

    Still below warriors and clerics in terms of mitigation, but we bring other things to the table, and the gap is nowhere close to what it used to be. I suspect this will only get better as we start seeing Deflect gear in ID.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Isila View Post
    I submit that you have most likely not read my other posts in this thread, then. I have stated several times that Planar Switch, as it is now, serves no useful function as it is still geared towards the old style of RS tanking. I have also offered both a suggestion on how it can achieve a similar effect to pulls but still be something unique for Riftstalkers, and brainstorming on someone else's similar idea that used different mechanics to achieve effectively the same thing.

    I also stress in one of the posts here that it's important to use what works for your raid. Our raid has used a Riftstalker all throughout HK, including when we were progressing on the final few fights and pre-nerf Akylios. It is true that when HK was first released, Riftstalkers had major issues -- that was before the complete overhaul on how the soul works and the addition of Deflect. When ID releases, we get even better with the flat 5% mitigation being added to everything.

    Still below warriors and clerics in terms of mitigation, but we bring other things to the table, and the gap is nowhere close to what it used to be. I suspect this will only get better as we start seeing Deflect gear in ID.
    Yah, I forgot you suggested the swap version, sorry.

    We're in a lot better spot after the overhaul and tweaks, but it was pretty disheartening to try tanking in HK and discovering that I really couldn't early on and it took one of our warrior tanks emo quitting for us to try a rogue tank again. We then killed pre-nurf AK with one warrior tank and two rogue tanks but still, you know the warriors still have an easier time of it and have a huge amount of utility, especially if they realize they can go away from the max mitigation tri-spec and still have just as good mitigation as the rogue/cleric tanks while picking up whatever utility they need for a fight (way of the mountain, etc).
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  11. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by TroubleMagnet View Post
    Replace Planar Switch with a talent:

    That adds both a silence and disarm effect to Planar Disruption so even non-caster ranged mobs run to us.
    Disarming a MM type mob doesn't make them run in, they just stand there until the disarm effect expires

  12. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by TroubleMagnet View Post
    Yah, I forgot you suggested the swap version, sorry.

    We're in a lot better spot after the overhaul and tweaks, but it was pretty disheartening to try tanking in HK and discovering that I really couldn't early on and it took one of our warrior tanks emo quitting for us to try a rogue tank again. We then killed pre-nurf AK with one warrior tank and two rogue tanks but still, you know the warriors still have an easier time of it and have a huge amount of utility, especially if they realize they can go away from the max mitigation tri-spec and still have just as good mitigation as the rogue/cleric tanks while picking up whatever utility they need for a fight (way of the mountain, etc).
    I understand where you're coming from on that. It was similar for myself -- initially my role was limited to "that rogue that we use to tank when one of the warriors doesn't show up", then progressed to "the offtank we use because one of our warriors quit", and finally now where I was a primary tank on our final stages of progression, and nowadays am the main tank for most of HK. Going forward into ID, we've every intention of running a Warrior/Rogue combo for tanking, with another warrior and cleric available for when we need additional tanks or want to see how cleric tanking affects the fight.

    I saw a similar situation back when I played WoW during the BC days. My guild's MT was a protection Paladin, and I was a Night Elf priest -- this, back during the days of original Nightbane and Gruul before the changes to how mob Fear worked and the priest racial overhaul, when the vast majority of the community was of the opinion that Paladins were joke tanks and priests should Go Dwarf or Go Home because of Fear Ward. We weren't getting any world firsts, but we were handling content just fine because we built our raids around the strengths of our tank, rather than trying to shoehorn a Paladin into a Warrior's spot.

    In the modern MMO landscape, where most people just copy strats they read online or hear from other people, you wind up with a lot of raids that are using strategies devised around having Warrior tanks, even when they're running Riftstalkers or Justicars, and this diminishes the effectiveness of those non-warrior tanks. Often times, non-warriors have to fight very hard to get existing guilds to see the benefits of tanks that aren't warriors. It took our second warrior getting gibbed by Suffocating Orbs while running over to pick up lashers several times for me to convince our raid that having a tank that could go from one end of the platform to the other nigh-instantly and completely ignore a solo Suffocating Orb (hooray for Scatter) would be a useful thing. These days I'm often told that they prefer having a Riftstalker as part of the comp.

    It won't always work for every raid, and I don't think that people should try to force themselves in when their crew has an established thing that works; I was fortunate enough to be presented with opportunity. And Riftstalkers still have a ways to go to be fully on-par with warriors and clerics -- Planar Switch still needs to be looked at and our mitigation could still use a little bit of work. But I'm optimistic with the coming changes to the soul and itemization of gear in ID that we'll get there, and in the meantime we still have a useful role to play.

    Keep on Stalkin'.
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  13. #58
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    So we all agree it needs to be changed.

    Most of us agree a pull would be great.

    A few of you don't want a pull.



    But we all want to see it changed, Trion I believe that is your queue.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Knightcrawler View Post
    But we all want to see it changed, Trion I believe that is your queue.
    To ignore the issue?

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    Plane Walker Knightcrawler's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mellik View Post
    To ignore the issue?
    Yea idk why I even make threads like this. I cant ever recall a player proposed change going live for rogues.
    Not nerf or buff calls, but changes.
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