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Thread: Assassin Impacts

  1. #1
    Plane Walker DiamondDog's Avatar
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    Default Assassin Impacts

    Between my previous post (with 54 replies) and the recent one asking if Assassins are still viable, many players are wondering:

    "Are Assassins any good or are people just blowing it out of proportion/L2P/Bad" etc.

    There are several truths here:
    1. It's extremely difficult for players to determine the validity of an experience posted on the forums. Some players are not level 50. Some have only played the Assassin for 1 month, some are not P40 or worse, are P25 and fought a P40 player and have skewed viewpoints. Before listening to a response aimed at diverting attention, lessening the severity or simply kissing up to devs, be sure to do your homework on who is posting and if they are experienced.

    2. The majority of players play more than one class. The majority that play rogues have not played Assassin for very long. Lastly, when you say "play Assassin", it's not just one static spec. A 51-Assassin still must choose 2 other trees and those selected trees vary. So while one person says they aren't good and another says they are, you have to take everything I just said in statement 1 and then realize that you must multiple those by a host of other variables.

    3. A considerable number of players like to chime in to the discussion only to 1-up you. If you say you aren't able to compete with a build, what better way to show you that they are better than you than to say "I can do it no problem" and "you need to l2p, read up, etc".

    4. Sure, one post about Assassins not being good isn't a big deal. When those that do play Assassin all start speaking up, then you begin to see a different perspective. While it's entirely possible that there is some "god" (or thinks he is) that is "better than everyone else at assassin", if 80-90% of you feel there is something wrong- then the 80-90%, in all probability, have a valid point.


    Having said that, when you look at 1.7 and you consider HOW the assassin is played, you can see the impacts without even playing an assassin.

    The goal of the assassin is to try and take out a player FAST. The mechanics are created with this goal in mind (you have stealth to get an ususpecting jump, you get burst damage, your big damage comes from your first hit and those within seconds). Beyond Rift, this is how it is in most mmorpgs. (WoW, DAOC, etc). In addition, the rogue is fairly weak to damage and mitigation by opponents. (similar to mages).

    So an assassin must therefore
    1. Kill someone fast
    2. Not get hit (stealth and slip away)

    What did 1.7 do?
    It increased valor to where everyone lives longer
    It increased hps to where everyone lives longer

    So it's extremely easy to see that an assassin has almost NO chance of killing someone as fast as they once did. That was the entire idea behind my original post that 4700 of you viewed recently.

    If you can NOT kill someone fast (like a mage can) then here will be your experiences:
    1. You jump a mage. Get CC. Cast Cast Cast the mage has 40% life and you are dead
    2. You jump a cleric. Heal, Heal, Heal, they remain at full life and either slowly whittle you down while staying at full health or they simply run to other players, guards, portals. While at lower levels, it's possible, wait until P40...and then try your debilitating poison.
    3. You jump a warrior, who either pulls out the big *** 2H and kills you FAST after "Touch of Life" to full health or is a S/B and you do no damage to him and he kills you FAST. The warrior has TOO much defense and armor for you to kill him fast and does MORE damage to you after the first 5 seconds than you do to him.

    So just to help new players understand that when you see a post, heck- even this one- don't take it for face value. Investigate. Try going over to a cleric, mage or warrior section, post as one of them and say "do you have problems with assassins" and see them laugh at you. Even though I've played an assassin for over 2500 hours game time, you should question this post and every post you see.

    It sucks when you level all the way to P40, spending months getting your rogue perfected and then realize the truth.

    I've been playing a S/B warrior (using Val's template) and although I'm only P25, I can guard stones and flags with no fear that anyone can take me down 1:1 with the tools I have. I cannot say that with an assassin. I can't wait till P40, the warrior will be just insane. (heck, not to mention the incoming warrior buff! Forgot about that as well!)
    Rogue: 0/0 HK or any other PVE content. Over 120+ days /played in PVP content exclusively as an Assassin. (yes, 2800 hours)
    Yes, I know MM and NB rule. No, I don't want to switch to a MM. Yes, I know they are the best. No, again, I'd rather improve Assassins.

  2. #2
    Shadowlander
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    Have you tried 44sin/22 rs,of course you gotta have athema in your pvp pa to really make it work but it does well with no support,also love 51sin/15bd but your squishy and hit like a truck.

    Im not sure how they could tweak Sin and not make it way OP as now only p40 with cooldowns up or tons of crosshealing,dont drop without athema used most the time before the second finisher,

    I have been playing my rogue since the beginning,about to find out if the is anachievement for 2 million kills,so I have some time in too. Female dwarf has had the names..Danity..Bleed..Phuker...and back to Danity guess they didnt like Phuker had to change it.

    PS Isnt sin part of the highest dps build for raiding,and I use in my farm build(21rs/19bd/26sin),and have in many different pvp builds,I feel its not only viable but very strong,I dont know how they would tweak it much,but Im hoping they do, love playing sin. But for now the days of having to are over

  3. #3
    Plane Walker TekBlk's Avatar
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    I play 51 Sin in Pvp all the time, RS/NB is just so tiring after awhile. The spec is very viable for good players. 1 vs 1 easy as pie, 2 vs 1s, hell even 3 vs 1; you just have to know what you are doing and use the tools in your arsenal. I fear no one in pvp, and with a pocket healer after the valor and end buff in a group a 51 sin is a weapon of mass destruction.
    Rebooting initiated... Loading Crayons 2.0

  4. #4
    Ascendant Am0n's Avatar
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    Are these threads really neccesary? Yes Sin is fine, in it's respective field. It is called Assassin for a reason. What everyone seems to be looking for is some kind of Rogue Warrior. Sorry that isn't Rift.

    All of these threads are one in the same. A QQ because it isn't a one beats all soul, nothing is and if you really think that it works that way then you are playing someone who is playing their class horribly wrong.

    Saying Mages blow you up faster is just ignorant. You can't make an argument saying that Valor reduced damage, and then turn around and say Mages are still blowing people up to fast. The change effected everyone not just Rogues.

    The changes were needed TTK was far to short, and now you are still just as effective if you can fight someone outside a Stunlock, which you should. Killing someone in 3 GCD's is in no way skill, and should never been the way things were done.

    Sin is probably the easiest soul to hybrid, and the combinations you can make are limitless. If you are going to gimp yourself to one spec that some others counter, then QQ in private because it really isn't a public problem other people are doing just fine.
    Last edited by Am0n; 02-20-2012 at 07:23 AM.
    "You lost me at Balance"

  5. #5
    Ascendant Am0n's Avatar
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    Stupid edit timer...

    1. You jump a mage. Get CC. Cast Cast Cast the mage has 40% life and you are dead
    Break Free spec for interrupt/silence.

    2. You jump a cleric. Heal, Heal, Heal, they remain at full life and either slowly whittle you down while staying at full health or they simply run to other players, guards, portals. While at lower levels, it's possible, wait until P40...and then try your debilitating poison.
    Hybrid for a heal debuff, use anathema, silence, time stuns

    3. You jump a warrior, who either pulls out the big *** 2H and kills you FAST after "Touch of Life" to full health or is a S/B and you do no damage to him and he kills you FAST. The warrior has TOO much defense and armor for you to kill him fast and does MORE damage to you after the first 5 seconds than you do to him.
    Big *** 2h? Spec for avoidance. ToL? Spec for a Fell Blades and steal half of his heal. His HP is far superior than yours so because he just healed 50% you just healed for 100%.

    I am sorry you feel you are gimp because no one dies in your peek a boo stun locks anymore, but there really isnt a problem.
    "You lost me at Balance"

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Am0n View Post
    Stupid edit timer...



    Break Free spec for interrupt/silence.


    Hybrid for a heal debuff, use anathema, silence, time stuns


    Big *** 2h? Spec for avoidance. ToL? Spec for a Fell Blades and steal half of his heal. His HP is far superior than yours so because he just healed 50% you just healed for 100%.

    I am sorry you feel you are gimp because no one dies in your peek a boo stun locks anymore, but there really isnt a problem.
    What spec has silence? Or is it interrupt silence? Wardens are all instas, so you won't be silencing anything.

    So anytime you mention silence you're talking about an MM spec? Cool.

    He's QQing a lot but he has a point. Assassins need to be able to kill. Other callings, mostly Mage and clerics, have specs that can nuke you and kill you IN VALOR gear in 3-5 seconds. That sounds like an assassin to me. The difference? They can keep going past the initial burst if they want. Not as huge, but still plenty big.

    Got crit by a fireball 2 days ago for 1700 wearing 1200 valor. Just a normal fireball.
    The first issue I would like feedback on is the Power Regeneration. I have tweaked it to a point but I need feedback on it from actual players (You guys) in a real world environment to fine tune it. The value is not final and will likely need to be changed. The goal is to minimize the use and need for Tablets and make players who do not use them more viable without completely removing the use of the Tablets in game

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    Ascendant Am0n's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DTM300 View Post
    What spec has silence? Or is it interrupt silence? Wardens are all instas, so you won't be silencing anything.

    So anytime you mention silence you're talking about an MM spec? Cool.

    He's QQing a lot but he has a point. Assassins need to be able to kill. Other callings, mostly Mage and clerics, have specs that can nuke you and kill you IN VALOR gear in 3-5 seconds. That sounds like an assassin to me. The difference? They can keep going past the initial burst if they want. Not as huge, but still plenty big.

    Got crit by a fireball 2 days ago for 1700 wearing 1200 valor. Just a normal fireball.
    BD has a silence. He has no point. I am a maxed geared Rogue, I can burn down any other calling. The only point I see to any of these threads are bad assassins that can't hybrid that cry when their favorite spec loses because of their own poor judgement, or macro mashing.
    "You lost me at Balance"

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    Ascendant Am0n's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DTM300 View Post
    Got crit by a fireball 2 days ago for 1700 wearing 1200 valor. Just a normal fireball.
    And they are specced to hit that hard with their fireball, it also has a cast time. Deadly Dance will buff Precision strike and backstab both up to similar numbers, and can buff assassinate to 3000, all on full valor targets.
    "You lost me at Balance"

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Am0n View Post
    And they are specced to hit that hard with their fireball, it also has a cast time. Deadly Dance will buff Precision strike and backstab both up to similar numbers, and can buff assassinate to 3000, all on full valor targets.
    So 5 cp finisher needed, check. BD spec needed, check. Folow up move with cd, check. Move with positional requirement needed and has a cd, check. Move that has positional requirement and stealth requirement, check.

    Fireball, cast time needed, check.

    Gotcha, sounds equal.
    Last edited by DTM300; 02-20-2012 at 12:28 PM.
    The first issue I would like feedback on is the Power Regeneration. I have tweaked it to a point but I need feedback on it from actual players (You guys) in a real world environment to fine tune it. The value is not final and will likely need to be changed. The goal is to minimize the use and need for Tablets and make players who do not use them more viable without completely removing the use of the Tablets in game

  10. #10
    Ascendant Am0n's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DTM300 View Post
    So 5 cp finisher needed, check. BD spec needed, check. Move with cd needed, check. Move with positional requirement needed and has a cd, check. Move that has positional requirement and stealth requirement, check.

    Fireball, cast time needed, check.

    Gotcha, sounds equal.
    You can whine all you want, it is. Being forced to stand still to cast? or being able to move? Also you dont want a CD then use Precision, Backstab, and KS. KS will hit just a little less, on a 1 sec gcd, no cast time, and freedom of movement.

    Off rotation replace Keen with Backstab, it isn't rocket science. unbind your macros and learn to situationally use your abilities, or reroll a mage. They are in no way hard to counter, or more powerful than a "decent" Rogue.

    Fireball is susceptable to:
    LOS
    Weapon Barrage
    Cheap Shot
    Blinding Powder
    Slip Away.

    Right there if played right are 5 CASTED abilities that the mage COULD NOT get off, Yes DR in this game blows, but those will all work, if you want you can wait in stealth for DR to reset itself, and start over, but for the love of god I hope you killed the bastard in half the rotation, or Rogue really isn't ment for you.
    Last edited by Am0n; 02-20-2012 at 12:32 PM.
    "You lost me at Balance"

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Am0n View Post
    BD has a silence. He has no point. I am a maxed geared Rogue, I can burn down any other calling. The only point I see to any of these threads are bad assassins that can't hybrid that cry when their favorite spec loses because of their own poor judgement, or macro mashing.
    You cannot burn down any other calling. You can win fights given certain specs. Not every spec can be maxed for dps and win. Hence the "burning someone down". Healing clerics you won't burn down alone, sorry.

    The POINT of these threads is that an assassin HAS to kill fast otherwise he is useless. If he does not have the tools to do so, the entire soul becomes useless. A heal debuff is ideal against someone who can heal. Burst damage is ideal against a glass cannon. With break free on everyone now, stuns are pretty much useless. You may get an extra GCD for an attack if they have to find the break free button. Without a viable stun, assassin specs rely on heavyburat damage. Anyone can pop a pot and soul remnant and negate that burst. Both are easily obtainable.

    In general, that renders an assassin useless. And that is why other specs are better. And that is the point of these threads.
    The first issue I would like feedback on is the Power Regeneration. I have tweaked it to a point but I need feedback on it from actual players (You guys) in a real world environment to fine tune it. The value is not final and will likely need to be changed. The goal is to minimize the use and need for Tablets and make players who do not use them more viable without completely removing the use of the Tablets in game

  12. #12
    Ascendant Am0n's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Am0n View Post
    You can whine all you want, it is. Being forced to stand still to cast? or being able to move? Also you dont want a CD then use Precision, Backstab, and KS. KS will hit just a little less, on a 1 sec gcd, no cast time, and freedom of movement.

    Off rotation replace Keen with Backstab, it isn't rocket science. unbind your macros and learn to situationally use your abilities, or reroll a mage. They are in no way hard to counter, or more powerful than a "decent" Rogue.

    Fireball is susceptable to:
    LOS
    Weapon Barrage
    Cheap Shot
    Blinding Powder
    Slip Away.

    Right there if played right are 5 CASTED abilities that the mage COULD NOT get off, Yes DR in this game blows, but those will all work, if you want you can wait in stealth for DR to reset itself, and start over, but for the love of god I hope you killed the bastard in half the rotation, or Rogue really isn't ment for you.
    Also if you open on the Mage 5 CPs takes 2 GCDs, followed by 3 or another 2 if you Slip Away. I fail to see how that is even a minute argument.
    "You lost me at Balance"

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    Ascendant Am0n's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DTM300 View Post
    You cannot burn down any other calling. You can win fights given certain specs. Not every spec can be maxed for dps and win. Hence the "burning someone down". Healing clerics you won't burn down alone, sorry.

    The POINT of these threads is that an assassin HAS to kill fast otherwise he is useless. If he does not have the tools to do so, the entire soul becomes useless. A heal debuff is ideal against someone who can heal. Burst damage is ideal against a glass cannon. With break free on everyone now, stuns are pretty much useless. You may get an extra GCD for an attack if they have to find the break free button. Without a viable stun, assassin specs rely on heavyburat damage. Anyone can pop a pot and soul remnant and negate that burst. Both are easily obtainable.

    In general, that renders an assassin useless. And that is why other specs are better. And that is the point of these threads.
    Give me a healer, there are a VERY select few that know their calling enough to not die, running into them is far and inbetween, a 100% specced healing Cleric SHOULD NOT die to a burst attack, all they do is heal and WILL NOT kill you. Thinking a single sin should burst down a healing cleric that knows what he is doing is silly.

    As for a Soul remnant that goes both ways. They ignore valor, there is an extra 1k burst.
    Last edited by Am0n; 02-20-2012 at 12:39 PM.
    "You lost me at Balance"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Am0n View Post
    Give me a healer, there are a VERY select few that know their calling enough to not die, running into them is far and inbetween, a 100% specced healing Cleric SHOULD NOT die to a burst attack, all they do is heal and WILL NOT kill you. Thinking a single sin should burst down a healing cleric that knows what he is doing is silly.

    As for a Soul remnant that goes both ways. They ignore valor, there is an extra 1k burst.
    *I* never claimed I could burn down any calling. Might want to reflect on who said that.
    The first issue I would like feedback on is the Power Regeneration. I have tweaked it to a point but I need feedback on it from actual players (You guys) in a real world environment to fine tune it. The value is not final and will likely need to be changed. The goal is to minimize the use and need for Tablets and make players who do not use them more viable without completely removing the use of the Tablets in game

  15. #15
    Champion ShazzamCrucia's Avatar
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    Try using 4pc HK with 51sin/15bd, then come back here and complain about damage output...seriously sin is pretty much ok in its current form
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