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Thread: [Feedback] Energy Concerns

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    Plane Touched
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    Default [Feedback] Energy Concerns

    Bringing up an issue that really needs to be addressed sooner rather then later, which is the Energy Starvation without full consumables and Verse of Joy on cool down in any soul combination that doesn't take enough points in Bladedancer or a Hard Cast MM Rotation.

    Currently the rate of energy regeneration itself feels fine, the bar fills in a timely manner, however the cost of abilities and how fast that bar is depleted is way to high. This runs true for all of the top Rogue DPS specs. In 1.5(?) or whatever patch it was, when MM became the top spec, you gave it a band aid fix by placing 10% energy reduction on it's talents. Keeping that in mind, my personal suggestion to remedy this issue:

    Add a new passive buff to the Rogue offering energy reduction, let's say:

    Tricks of the Trade
    Your mastery of the Rogue arts has increased your efficiency in the use of combat skills, reducing energy cost by X%

    I am not yet sure what value would be good to go here, I think 10% like MM was given might suffice but it would need some testing and then tweaking to see.

    However with this change going in said band aid fix to MM energy costs needs to be undone, the ability Controlled Fire for MM could be changed from it's current state to say:

    Controlled Fire
    Your Deadeye Shot critical hits cause the target to bleed out for 50% of the damage dealt over 10 seconds in addition your ranged weapon attacks gain an additional 10% Attack Power damage bonus. The damage bonus from Attack Power is increased by 5% for every point spent in the Marksman Soul above 38.

    I feel this both addresses energy concerns, and some of the DPS concerns that MM currently faces with being just that little bit behind being a competitive spec. It won't turn into some OP must play spec, but people won't feel as bad about running it.

    Now please, before you guys respond with comments about Warriors, we aren't here to compare ourselves against them, this is to get us in a better state. So again please don't spam the thread about any changes they received, thanks!

    Lets get some positive ideas flowing for Ailion to peruse through, as we all know we want something done about our energy.

    Much love <3
    Last edited by Taraern; 02-17-2012 at 12:46 PM.
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    I feel as if 1 of 2 solutions could work. The reasoning behind them is that normal abilities should take us a while to become energy starved (30 energy), without fervor or living energy. 40 energy abilities are a different story.

    1) 5 cp finishers cost 0 energy. While not the majority of our attacks, the 1 GCD spent using the finisher would be pure energy gain.

    2) Up the energy regen rate to be right below 30. Maybe 27 or 28. This would mean we would become energy starved after some time without buffs, but with fervor or living we'd be ok.

    I believe the new warrior regen rates are something similar to number two. They gain back power at a rate EQUAL to normal cost attacks. I'm pretty sure that's what the current case is.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DTM300 View Post
    I feel as if 1 of 2 solutions could work. The reasoning behind them is that normal abilities should take us a while to become energy starved (30 energy), without fervor or living energy. 40 energy abilities are a different story.

    1) 5 cp finishers cost 0 energy. While not the majority of our attacks, the 1 GCD spent using the finisher would be pure energy gain.

    2) Up the energy regen rate to be right below 30. Maybe 27 or 28. This would mean we would become energy starved after some time without buffs, but with fervor or living we'd be ok.

    I believe the new warrior regen rates are something similar to number two. They gain back power at a rate EQUAL to normal cost attacks. I'm pretty sure that's what the current case is.
    1. 0 energy 5 CP finishers would be very interesting.

    2. An energy regen rate at 27 or 28/sec would feel very overpowered to be honest. With our 23 energy/sec regen + fervor, we were experiencing a ~3.1 energy deficit if you were to spam 30 base energy cost abilities over and over again. If you bumped regen up that high, you would rarely have a deficit with fervor up, considering you can't really spam 40 energy abilities. Although, the slight exception would be Bloodstalker and using 2-4 CP finishers, lol.

    If energy regen rates are to be tweaked, I would say go with 25/sec first and increase/decrease by 1 from there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adastra View Post
    1. 0 energy 5 CP finishers would be very interesting.

    2. An energy regen rate at 27 or 28/sec would feel very overpowered to be honest. With our 23 energy/sec regen + fervor, we were experiencing a ~3.1 energy deficit if you were to spam 30 base energy cost abilities over and over again. If you bumped regen up that high, you would rarely have a deficit with fervor up, considering you can't really spam 40 energy abilities. Although, the slight exception would be Bloodstalker and using 2-4 CP finishers, lol.

    If energy regen rates are to be tweaked, I would say go with 25/sec first and increase/decrease by 1 from there.
    I believe the warrior dev quoted saying you should not HAVE to rely on fervor/living energy to do normal rotations. With those buffs you should never be energy/power starved from normal costing abilities.

    At 27-28 energy regen, living energy would put us in that scenario and fervor would minority put us above 30 energy a second.

    That is similar to warriors I believe. Then when you start adding in additional energy moves (40 energy) you will become starved. Warriors with off GCD attacks and higher cost attacks.

    I can find the quote if you like when I get home. There is no reason rogues should be in a different state.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DTM300 View Post
    I believe the warrior dev quoted saying you should not HAVE to rely on fervor/living energy to do normal rotations. With those buffs you should never be energy/power starved from normal costing abilities.
    Which kind of makes the whole concept of energy pointless, does it not? If you can spam a normal rotation in a raid scenario without worrying about running short or capping out, what's the point of having it as a resource at all?

    I'd much rather they ditched energy completely and just left us reliant on cooldowns and CPs to manage our rotations. If people are just going to moan until energy regen gets buffed so they can use every skill on cooldown anyway, it becomes as useless a mechanic as casters with their practically infinite mana through talents.

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    Just a thought for PvP, since assassins are the most energy starved, how about additionally adding "and Regenerates 5 energy" to debhilitating poison, to go with the leeching theme.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JimboTCB View Post
    Which kind of makes the whole concept of energy pointless, does it not? If you can spam a normal rotation in a raid scenario without worrying about running short or capping out, what's the point of having it as a resource at all?

    I'd much rather they ditched energy completely and just left us reliant on cooldowns and CPs to manage our rotations. If people are just going to moan until energy regen gets buffed so they can use every skill on cooldown anyway, it becomes as useless a mechanic as casters with their practically infinite mana through talents.
    You're talking ideally vs. reality.

    Reality:

    Mana is an unlimited resource in most specs/fights. For both clerics and mages.

    Warrior power regen is now a non-issue in raids with fervor up.

    Rogues are still reliant on a tablet for their highest dps build IN ADDITION to fervor.

    Other rogue builds seem to be ok in raids with fervor, but can still occassionally become starved. This is due to MM having energy reduction and BD having a talent for energy regen on finishers, Ranger being non-competitive in raids (would be starved if used), and Sabs being currently non-competitive.

    Builds that use RS for ports are generally energy starved.

    Anyhow, that's the reality currently. Only resource issue are rogues currently. No reason why we should be the only calling with that issue.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DTM300 View Post
    You're talking ideally vs. reality.

    Reality:

    Mana is an unlimited resource in most specs/fights. For both clerics and mages.

    Warrior power regen is now a non-issue in raids with fervor up.

    Rogues are still reliant on a tablet for their highest dps build IN ADDITION to fervor.

    Other rogue builds seem to be ok in raids with fervor, but can still occassionally become starved. This is due to MM having energy reduction and BD having a talent for energy regen on finishers, Ranger being non-competitive in raids (would be starved if used), and Sabs being currently non-competitive.

    Builds that use RS for ports are generally energy starved.

    Anyhow, that's the reality currently. Only resource issue are rogues currently. No reason why we should be the only calling with that issue.
    nightblade also starves very quickly, uses 30 energy/sec without fervor for standard 2cp1cp1cpfinisher rotation

    (Gear)

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    Am i the only one who thinks adding another PA tree would be a more engaging way to deal with this? Somewhere I posted that perhaps the weapon DPS hexes could also provide a small energy regen buff for auto attacks made with that weapon type.

    Even more fun would be a whole new PA tree devoted to each calling that has powers and abilities that would help bolster your raid performance. you could have the rogue one be littered with energy regen hexes.
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    I want my combat culmination back. Just make rift scavenger give me energy too. It's practically the same skill anyways.

    Quote Originally Posted by Daglar View Post
    When time allows I'll be looking at the issue with the class guys.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DTM300 View Post
    I feel as if 1 of 2 solutions could work. The reasoning behind them is that normal abilities should take us a while to become energy starved (30 energy), without fervor or living energy. 40 energy abilities are a different story.

    1) 5 cp finishers cost 0 energy. While not the majority of our attacks, the 1 GCD spent using the finisher would be pure energy gain.

    2) Up the energy regen rate to be right below 30. Maybe 27 or 28. This would mean we would become energy starved after some time without buffs, but with fervor or living we'd be ok.

    I believe the new warrior regen rates are something similar to number two. They gain back power at a rate EQUAL to normal cost attacks. I'm pretty sure that's what the current case is.
    IIRC, warrior energy regen is currently at 13/s or 19.5/gcd. The majority of warrior abilities cost 17 energy with followups/oGCD builders costing 10, most finishers costing 10 and some oGCD finishers costing 15 plus AoEs costing 22.

    The equivalent energy regen for rogues would be 34 energy/s.
    Last edited by Durango; 02-17-2012 at 11:27 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adastra View Post
    1. 0 energy 5 CP finishers would be very interesting.

    2. An energy regen rate at 27 or 28/sec would feel very overpowered to be honest. With our 23 energy/sec regen + fervor, we were experiencing a ~3.1 energy deficit if you were to spam 30 base energy cost abilities over and over again. If you bumped regen up that high, you would rarely have a deficit with fervor up, considering you can't really spam 40 energy abilities. Although, the slight exception would be Bloodstalker and using 2-4 CP finishers, lol.

    If energy regen rates are to be tweaked, I would say go with 25/sec first and increase/decrease by 1 from there.
    Um, warriors get 19.5 per GCD. Their 22 energy AoEs with fervor are energy neutral. The only thing that currently costs them energy is oGCD attacks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zyzyx View Post
    I want my combat culmination back. Just make rift scavenger give me energy too. It's practically the same skill anyways.
    There is no real scenario where the old CC was useful, including farming. Get over it already.

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    NB that starts from 100 energy without fervor is energy starved in 4 seconds. With fervor it takes 8 seconds. I think it's the quickest build to starve. It would require about 29-30 energy regeneration per second to play NB without energy starvation and without fervor.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Durango View Post
    IIRC, warrior energy regen is currently at 13/s or 19.5/gcd. The majority of warrior abilities cost 17 energy with followups/oGCD builders costing 10, most finishers costing 10 and some oGCD finishers costing 15 plus AoEs costing 22.

    The equivalent energy regen for rogues would be 34 energy/s.
    I see what u did there.. 34 energy/s means that i kill you, you respawn and in 3 seconds u are fully buffed and full of energy.
    It also means that dominators have no chance of draining you in PvP.

    Look, I'm not gonna argue against some kind of energy boost IF that makes your rotations feel smoother hence playing the rogue more fluent, however, when warrior regen was over-tuned i saw the very warriors asking it to be nerfed cos their ears were bleeding from too much rogue QQ

    My point is, try making suggestions that will improve your game experience and still be balanced instead of comparing things that are not comparable in the first place, which only makes suggestions sound selfish in a way.
    You cannot compare warrior regen per GCD with rogue regen per GCD simply because warrior GCD is 1.5 seconds long. I know that increasing rogue GCD is out of the question since warriors need 4.5 sec to use a finisher which comes in accordance with rogues need 5s.
    However, with the above in mind, it might be a better solution to just reduce builder cost a bit and also increase regen a bit to avoid making regen overtunned while trying to make the rotations more fluent..

    but then again those changes would mean that rogue dps is gonna explode again and it already seems to be no1 in ST so i leave it up to you to come up with a solution to maintain dps at its current satisfying levels
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