Saboteur changes for 1.8

[lgw]

It's completely unsurprising that Sab still lacks behind.
Sabdancer was viable because basically every Charge did double damage. That was taken away from us, and then other Callings were buffed on top of that.

Go figure...
(And wake up on that stupidly obvious fact Allion ! Thank you.)

[bitnine]

Traps serve this purpose now.

Wait, traps serve a purpose now? When did that happen?!

[DTM300]

Theorycrafting the rotation I listed here using these numbers. (Of course, this doesn't account for the unspecified "adjustments" to Spike and Caltrop's DPS, but it does say something about they SHOULD be.)

Note: Scaling up the damage of Chemical Bomb by 25% to match its increased duration.

Note: I'm throwing in Lightning Fury (even though I'm using numbers from 46/20 above and 51/13/2 for LF, yes it's sloppy) as one GCD filler. It has DPGCD of 1.0k in my testing. (Aside, LF has the same DPGCD as a full Shrap x5 > Det rotation, so its at least as good [actually better] use of GCD to use LF than Shrap > Det. If Frag can detonate Splinter, then that would be a better option.) All of these assumptions are generous to Sab, so the actual DPS will be lower than claimed.

Background:

On PTS right now, this rotation:

TB > FB > CB > Shrap x5 > Det > Caltrop x5 > Det >
TB > FB > CB > Shrap x5 > Det > Spike x5 > AB

Sustains 4.45k DPS on 3 targets, or 1.48k DPS per target.

PTS Changes:

TB > FB > CB > Caltrop x5 > Det > LF
TB > FB > CB > Caltrop x5 > Det > LF
TB > FB > CB > Spike x5 > AB > LF

DPS per target ~= (3 * 2.1 + 3 * 2.05 + 3 * 1.71 + 12 * 1.3k + 6 * 1.88k + 3 * 1.0k) / 30 = 1.58k

So in this case the changes are not a big DPS gain. This is kind of obvious in hindsight because we have basically traded some Shrapnel detonations for Caltrop. The DPS difference between Shrapnel and Caltrop isn't too significant, so the real DPS gain is from adding in more bombs -- but since we've only increased their share of GCDs from 20% to 30%, it's not enough. So buffing Caltrop by shortening the bleed isn't a significant DPS increase, because the real limitation on DPS is Annihilation Bomb.

What if...

So what if AB's cooldown was 10 secs, then this rotation:

TB > FB > CB > Spike x5 > AB > LF

DPS per target ~= (2.1 + 2.05 + 1.71 + 6 * 1.88k + 1.0k) / 10 = 1.81k

That's a bit better! This equaties to 1.81 * 3 = 5.41k DPS on 3 targets, which leaves it 12% behind Stormcaller.

...wait, this is still pretty crappy. What's going on?

Well, it's obvious. SC/pyro is pulling 6200 on 3 targets, meaning it averages ~2k per target. But even Sab's best charge on a 25 second cooldown is below this -- Spike x5 / AB tops out at 1.88k DPGCD. The only things that come close are TB and FB, which are effectively on 8 and 10 sec cooldowns respectively and rely on properly spacing HE. (In fact, I've been pretty generous using the TB/FB numbers because HE is clipped from TB on the next rotation.)

Conclusions:

• The damage of Sab abilities is overall just bad. The only skills that compete with Stormcaller's sustained DPS are two bombs that are restricted to 15-20% of the GCDs in any rotation. Even the peak damage of Sab -- currently on a 25 sec CD -- is worse than what Stormcaller sustains.
• Charges need a big DPS buff overall since they constitute the majority of GCDs in any rotation. Caltrop and Spike better be getting a substantial DPS buff in the next round of patches, or Sab is going to still lag far behind Stormcaller. Shortening the bleeds really doesn't do anything. (Contrary to what I thought previously.)
• Spike is too much better than the other charges. The other charges are kind of embarrassing -- they need to brought up so that Annihilation Bomb isn't as significant as it is currently. Even after Spike is buffed, Blast, Caltrop, and Shrapnel need even bigger buffs to smooth out the rotation.
• Once charges are brought into line with Stormcaller, Bombs will need another buff or there will be no reason to use them in a rotation. (They are currently lower DPGCD than Stormcaller sustains by themselves.)
• 10 second rotations are still awkward. We want to use 10-seconds because the bleeds (especially Spike) are much higher DPS, but we need to use bombs within these 10 seconds because they are much higher DPGCD. Only having 3 bombs, that leaves us with an empty GCD and nothing useful to use it for (in AE). Combined Arms should affect Splinter and Ember charge as well, and maybe Shrapnel instead of Spike.

This paints a pretty grim picture, and frankly not one that can be addressed by the patch notes Ailion has just posted. A new mechanic needs to be added or there need to be across-the-board DPS gains or Sab simply will not catch Stormcaller.

Love this guy. Thanks for parsing and testing with details.

I will say this, Sab charges were barely competitive in Sab dancer. I said it before but if you need a 105% increase to charge damage to be competitive, that says a great deal about the charges themselves. It screams "bad".

You took DD away. Good. Now raise the damage on the charges.

You have bombs being used, good. You have 3-4 charges being used, pretty good. Would be nice if all charges had usefulness but whatever.

You have traps being us.... Wait a second, traps aren't used. Why? Because they're bad. Terrible.

Ok so, options:

Traps are placed on target directly, and arm after 1 second. But make the traps actually useful. Make them AE around the target placed while moving with them (aura so to speak), and make them assist with dps.

Bombs should be the instant AE. Traps should be what is used in conjunction with charges for the sustained/heavy AE.

I'm on the bombs = the new fan out spam. Make chemical similar to frag and no cd and those combined should beat out fanout. Make time bomb AE as well. Put HE back on det and you're almost home.

Those are my thoughts on Sab. Bombs = easy AE with 3 AE moves. Chemical would need a cd equal to it's duration though for obvious reasons. Frag no cd.

Traps could just increase a certain type of charge damage depending on trap.

[TroubleMagnet]

Traps should be a ground targeted AoE that doesn't go off if there are no valid targets in the area. If they are changed to require a target you should change the name too, unless the target has to take some kind of action to set them off.

[DTM300]

Traps should be a ground targeted AoE that doesn't go off if there are no valid targets in the area. If they are changed to require a target you should change the name too, unless the target has to take some kind of action to set them off.

Nuances. Saboteur is the name I'm looking at. By definition they sabotage. By blowing up or messing up something important.

Call them whatever you want. They should have functionality that if/when set off, someone is going to pay. Via either direct damage OR a debuff that will combined with another ability will cause serious damage. I prefer the latter due to my proposal of frag having no cd.

The issue with traps currently are "melee". Bombs are ranged, charges are ranged, detonate is ranged. Might as well make traps ranged. Why would a saboteur want to put himself in direct danger just to place a trap? He doesn't have stealth so.... that makes no sense. And for PvE purposes, there is really no good way to set up a trap on the floor and have the tank pull to it. I mean it's just not going to happen.

If you have to run up to the mobs just to place a trap while every other ability is ranged... Yea, dumb. Or it has to be massively beneficial.

Whatever, make the arming time 2 seconds and a small radius (I think they're all pretty small radius right now). Gives time for said per to move out of it if aware. Pve traps could be used in conjunction with adhesive if a mob was charging you. Maybe you'd have to trap then annihilation bomb. I dunno.

All that being said: Yes, either ground target or thrown on target with a short arming time would work. One trap could be a bleed charge increase (spike caltrop), another a blast/shrap increase, another a barbed effect with damage similar to storm shackle.

Traps could have CDs so they aren't spamable, but their effects should be potent.

[Zyzyx]

Wait, traps serve a purpose now? When did that happen?!

Early on in these changes they changed traps to have no CD and changed the talent that used to do that add ap scaling.

[DTM300]

Early on in these changes they changed traps to have no CD and changed the talent that used to do that add ap scaling.

Pretty sure it would be a waste of time for Beckmann to even make a parse using traps. If it's a dps loss, what purpose does it serve? None.

[Zyzyx]

Pretty sure it would be a waste of time for Beckmann to even make a parse using traps. If it's a dps loss, what purpose does it serve? None.

It's only a dps loss when you have time to get another set of charges off.

DPS gain when mob is dying in <6 seconds.

[DTM300]

It's only a dps loss when you have time to get another set of charges off.

DPS gain when mob is dying in <6 seconds.

Sigh, if the charges on a mob would explode when it dies, this wouldn't be an issue.

Also, you're assuming your bombs and or carpet bombing is down.

Additionally, this wouldn't be necessary if frag bomb was the no cd bomb for AE.

Or you could make traps solely useful (what, one of them?) for mobs that are going to die in less than 6 seconds.

I'd say a no brainer here, but I'm not the rogue dev.

[Zyzyx]

Sigh, if the charges on a mob would explode when it dies, this wouldn't be an issue.

Also, you're assuming your bombs and or carpet bombing is down.

Additionally, this wouldn't be necessary if frag bomb was the no cd bomb for AE.

Or you could make traps solely useful (what, one of them?) for mobs that are going to die in less than 6 seconds.

I'd say a no brainer here, but I'm not the rogue dev.

Yeah, I'd much prefer if frag bomb had no CD and generated combo points.

[DTM300]

Yeah, I'd much prefer if frag bomb had no CD and generated combo points.

Thats too easy. You need to have super difficult rotations like clerics, mages, and warrior do for AE dps.

Hahaha. Oh man, sometimes Ailion cracks me up.

[Zaros]

Thats too easy. You need to have super difficult rotations like clerics, mages, and warrior do for AE dps.

Hahaha. Oh man, sometimes Ailion cracks me up.

I hear mighty blow takes skill

[Zyzyx]

I hear mighty blow takes skill

Sign of asias + tyrany : troll-face:

[Beckmann]

Early on in these changes they changed traps to have no CD and changed the talent that used to do that add ap scaling.

Traps still do really low damage, especially the one that does direct damage (not the DoT) that is the only useful one in this situation. Much worse than Shrapnel, which is already a DPS loss to Fan Out.

Yeah, I'd much prefer if frag bomb had no CD and generated combo points.

I'm not sure what the CP would do for a pure Sab in AE. I don't see the need. I think you are completely correct though that removing the cooldown to FB would be a big improvement, but only with other changes that are already necessary.

Given that half of Frag's damage comes from HE (and spamming clips this), it wouldn't be OP. You'd be doing something like 1.2k DPS per target just by spamming FB and nothing else (bomb + initial tick of HE). On PTS right now that would make Shrapnel obsolete and probably make Caltrop not worth it (only a small DPS gain). But those charges are so awful right now anyway that I'd like to ignore it and assume they'll get a buff.

Just off the top of my head, Shrapnel needs to be in the realm of 1.6k DPS per target and Caltrop around 1.9k DPS per target, (with Spike around 2.2k DPS per target). If HE got buffed back to its previous DPS, that would make TB and FB still a significant DPS gain but only if HE was allowed to complete unclipped.

Given that FB spam wouldn't let this happen, it would only translate to 1.2-1.3k DPS per target, making it a viable but definitely not optimal way to play Sab. This would fill the need for "something to do" when targets have very low health or you are saving a set of charges. And this DPS would give Sab a built-in way to compete with Fan Out.

When I have some time tomorrow I'll try to see what DPS this would work out to.

[Beckmann]

One playstyle issue with removing the CD on Frag Bomb ... Time Bomb becomes pointless. This is easy to fix by making Time Bomb hit a lot harder than Frag Bomb, but it's worth mentioning. It would have to be enough of a buff that HE damage didn't normalize it to the point of not mattering.